BBO Discussion Forums: When does dummy cease to be dummy - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

When does dummy cease to be dummy

Poll: When does dummy cease to be dummy (11 member(s) have cast votes)

'Every one knows' when dummy ceases to be dummy. Or do they?

  1. When trick 13 is quitted (1 votes [9.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  2. When Play ceases (10 votes [90.91%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.91%

  3. When the auction period commences for the next hand (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. At the end of the round (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Both 3 and 4 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. When a new dummy is chosen (start of play period for next hand) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2017-February-19, 04:41

Definition: Declarer's partner. He becomes dummy when the opening lead is faced.

(Although of course after an OLOOT there is presumably a presumptive declarer and presumptive dummy). Note that the auction period for the next hand might have already started e.g. when a player removes their hand for the incorrect board.

To help you - law 42B3: Dummy may draw attention to any irregularity, but only after play of the hand is concluded.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-19, 06:52

I am not sure what the difference between your first two options is, but it is important that dummy be allowed to speak up before the cards have been shuffled. For example, if dummy has noticed a revoke, some opponents will find it difficult to reconstruct the play if the cards are not in played order.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#3 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2017-February-19, 07:41

View PostVampyr, on 2017-February-19, 06:52, said:

I am not sure what the difference between your first two options is, but it is important that dummy be allowed to speak up before the cards have been shuffled. For example, if dummy has noticed a revoke, some opponents will find it difficult to reconstruct the play if the cards are not in played order.

The difference is that play ends when a claim or a concession is made (except when a defender immediately objects to his partner's concession), and play ends at that time (Law 68D.

Dummy regains his full rights as a player when play ends which can well be before trick 13 has been played as it is never played on such boards.

The Laws do not specifically state that Dummy ceases to be dummy at this time, but I think it is fair to say that a dummy who has regained his full rights as player is no longer a Dummy.
0

#4 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2017-February-19, 11:24

But law 42B3 implies that Dummy remains dummy "after the play of the hand is concluded". If the intention of the lawmakers was that Dummy would cease being dummy at that point then they should have stated "A player ceases being dummy, and may therefore draw attention to any irregularity, after the play of the hand is concluded."
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

#5 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-19, 12:31

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-February-19, 11:24, said:

But law 42B3 implies that Dummy remains dummy "after the play of the hand is concluded". If the intention of the lawmakers was that Dummy would cease being dummy at that point then they should have stated "A player ceases being dummy, and may therefore draw attention to any irregularity, after the play of the hand is concluded."

What is the significance of the distinction you are trying to make? What else is it that a player can do after they cease to be dummy that they can't do while dummy?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#6 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2017-February-19, 12:43

As long as we know what his rights, responsibilities and restrictions are at any given time, I don't think it matters whether he is "dummy", "the player formerly known as dummy", or "the player who will be dummy in due course".
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
2

#7 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,570
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-February-19, 14:29

Someone in the Yahoo group for discussion of the 2017 Laws asked for clarification of this as well, but the only response was that this didn't seem to be necessary.

#8 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2017-February-19, 15:06

View Postgordontd, on 2017-February-19, 12:31, said:

What is the significance of the distinction you are trying to make? What else is it that a player can do after they cease to be dummy that they can't do while dummy?

Well in the 2017 laws for instance you are not allowed to show dummy your hand.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

#9 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-19, 15:38

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-February-19, 15:06, said:

Well in the 2017 laws for instance you are not allowed to show dummy your hand.

It seems obvious to me that there should be no prohibition on showing your hand to a former dummy after play is over.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-19, 21:36

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-February-19, 15:06, said:

Well in the 2017 laws for instance you are not allowed to show dummy your hand.


I am curious what the reason for this was.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-February-19, 23:45

Dummy ceases to be dummy when trick 13 is quitted or there is a claim or concession (unless a defender objects to a concession by his partner), whichever comes first.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#12 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-20, 01:21

View PostVampyr, on 2017-February-19, 21:36, said:

I am curious what the reason for this was.

To make both sides responsible for avoiding the situation when a dummy looks at a defender's hand during play. This featured during the "racecars" incident in 2005 and it will no doubt be easier now for dummies to refuse to let a defender see their hand.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#13 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2017-February-20, 03:04

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-February-19, 23:45, said:

Dummy ceases to be dummy when trick 13 is quitted or there is a claim or concession (unless a defender objects to a concession by his partner), whichever comes first.

No Law says that, but this (as I said earlier) is when all restrictions on Dummy expires because play ends.
0

#14 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2017-February-20, 03:08

View Postgordontd, on 2017-February-20, 01:21, said:

To make both sides responsible for avoiding the situation when a dummy looks at a defender's hand during play. This featured during the "racecars" incident in 2005 and it will no doubt be easier now for dummies to refuse to let a defender see their hand.

HUH?
I suppose you mean "refuse to let a defender expose his hand to Dummy"?
0

#15 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-20, 03:24

View Postpran, on 2017-February-20, 03:08, said:

HUH?
I suppose you mean "refuse to let a defender expose his hand to Dummy"?

Yes of course you are correct - too early in the morning :)
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#16 User is offline   WellSpyder 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,627
  • Joined: 2009-November-30
  • Location:Oxfordshire, England

Posted 2017-February-20, 05:07

View Postpran, on 2017-February-20, 03:08, said:

HUH?
I suppose you mean "refuse to let a defender expose his hand to Dummy"?

You beat me to it! I was just thinking that defending is tough enough when I am allowed to see dummy, let alone when I'm not....
1

#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-20, 06:26

View Postgordontd, on 2017-February-20, 01:21, said:

To make both sides responsible for avoiding the situation when a dummy looks at a defender's hand during play. This featured during the "racecars" incident in 2005 and it will no doubt be easier now for dummies to refuse to let a defender see their hand.


I have been told by someone close to the incident that it wasn't a case of seeing defender's hand; rather dummy had heard something.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#18 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2017-February-20, 07:04

My POV:

Bridge is played one board at the time and one table at the time. If North is dummy at table 3 on board 1 of the Monday Pairs game on February 20th, 2017 at Bridge Club "TiOH" (Thirteen in One Hand, not some weird hydroxide of Titanium), then North will be the dummy at table 3 on board 1 of the Monday Pairs game on February 20th, 2017 at Bridge Club "TiOH" (Thirteen in One Hand, not some weird hydroxide of Titanium) forever.

It is an entirely different question who will be the dummy on board 2.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#19 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-20, 07:13

View PostVampyr, on 2017-February-20, 06:26, said:

I have been told by someone close to the incident that it wasn't a case of seeing defender's hand; rather dummy had heard something.

Are you talking about the same incident? I think dummy looked at the defenders' hand, and having seen the trumps were 3-0 made a signal with three of his fingers.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-February-20, 09:11

View Postgordontd, on 2017-February-20, 07:13, said:

Are you talking about the same incident? I think dummy looked at the defenders' hand, and having seen the trumps were 3-0 made a signal with three of his fingers.


Well, I think that dummy had heard something about the board. I cannot tell whose source had the better information.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users