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It was the Xmas party at the club last night. I had a really nice (and good, 54%) game with a last minute partner.
We had this auction, my partner opened..
1♥:3♥* inviational
3♠:4♥
After I bid 4♥ my LHO suddenly comes alive and asks what the 3♠ bid was.
I say, nicely I thought, you may want to wait until your partner makes her lead face down before you ask that.
So now he says "I have another bid don't I" ?!!!
I said, well yes but unless you are thinking of making an actual bid...
He calls the director.
Director comes over and makes a very good explanation of why, although he is permitted to, he should not be asking questions at that
point in the auction. She ends with 'is that clear'? He says no, but never mind. PASS PASS PASS Partner makes a face down lead, he asks what was 3♠ and I start with , this is the first time I have played with this partner, however I...but get cut off with "Well, why couldn't you say that to start with!!"
I give up! I'm guessing he is either a lawyer or a used car salesman. (sorry Mike, & others)
we are all intelligent people here, aren't we?
#1
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Posted 2011-December-18, 14:58
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#2
- World International Master without a clue
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Posted 2011-December-18, 15:59
one of the hardest things in life is to teach to someone who doesn´t want to learn.
#3
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Posted 2011-December-18, 16:19
I have to disagree with your approach here.
You should answer your LHO's question and worry about whether or not the question transmitted UI later. By coming up with this, "you may want to wait until your partner makes her lead face down" stuff you are making your rulings at the table and crossing over into the TD's domain.
If it turns out to be a lead-directing question you will be fully protected, so why would you want to start an argument with someone - especialy at the Christmas Party?
You should answer your LHO's question and worry about whether or not the question transmitted UI later. By coming up with this, "you may want to wait until your partner makes her lead face down" stuff you are making your rulings at the table and crossing over into the TD's domain.
If it turns out to be a lead-directing question you will be fully protected, so why would you want to start an argument with someone - especialy at the Christmas Party?
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
#4
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Posted 2011-December-18, 17:06
I disagree. I think any reasonable person would listen to what was being said, call the director for clarification if needed but I think it is far worse to let these things slide. The other day I thought my partner, in the pass out seat was reaching to pick up her bidding cards so I reached to pick up mine. One of the opps said, 'that's a bad habit to get into'. I replied Yes, sorry and that was it. I'll be more careful next time.
I see what you are saying about crossing into the TD's domain, I think it is tricky. Politely drawing attention to the “infraction” in both these examples is more appropriate than calling the director but then from there its a short step for players to be making their own, incorrect, rulings.
“why would you want to start an argument at the Christmas Party” is a red herring. The fact that food and wine was served before an ACBL sanctioned game is irrelevant.
I see what you are saying about crossing into the TD's domain, I think it is tricky. Politely drawing attention to the “infraction” in both these examples is more appropriate than calling the director but then from there its a short step for players to be making their own, incorrect, rulings.
“why would you want to start an argument at the Christmas Party” is a red herring. The fact that food and wine was served before an ACBL sanctioned game is irrelevant.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#5
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Posted 2011-December-18, 17:13
jillybean, on 2011-December-18, 14:58, said:
I'm guessing he is either a lawyer or
Everything from a lawyer comes with a disclaimer. After all, they are only "practising" law. Makes me nervous with my physician though.
I agree with Mr. dct in that you can endplay the uninformed as he put it so well.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
What is baby oil made of?
#6
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Posted 2011-December-18, 17:28
If you think your opponents is doing something improper, you can always call the director. You should not try to teach them ethics etc at the bridge table.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
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#7
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Posted 2011-December-18, 18:11
Another aspect of jillybean's approach that I don't like is telegraphing a presumption to the table that 4♥ is going to be the final contract which could put the the 1♥ opener in an awkward position if, for example, they were considering further action (given the possible earlier slam-try with 3♠) but now Pass is strongly suggested by East's comment.
The Laws are quite clear that at a player's turn to act they can ask anything they like, but they do at the risk of transmitting UI. If a question is asked by the player whose turn it is to act, you should answer it. If at the end of the hand you feel that the question was inappropriate and/or transmitted UI that was acted upon, that is the time call the director.
Have you got the full hand?
The Laws are quite clear that at a player's turn to act they can ask anything they like, but they do at the risk of transmitting UI. If a question is asked by the player whose turn it is to act, you should answer it. If at the end of the hand you feel that the question was inappropriate and/or transmitted UI that was acted upon, that is the time call the director.
Have you got the full hand?
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
#8
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Posted 2011-December-18, 18:18
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
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#9
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Posted 2011-December-18, 18:25
Once the question has been asked, you answer the question. Had I been the director it is you, not your LHO, who would have gotten the first lecture from me.
If you feel the need to give advice too, well, so be it - but your immediate obligation is to answer the legally asked question. Yes, there may be an ethical issue, but if there is, the act of asking the question has already caused it and it can't be undone, and withholding the answer doesn't make things any better.
As for LHO's lecture, I would prefer to see it saved until after the hand/round, rather than given in the middle of the auction. It too is better given by the director than by you.
If you feel the need to give advice too, well, so be it - but your immediate obligation is to answer the legally asked question. Yes, there may be an ethical issue, but if there is, the act of asking the question has already caused it and it can't be undone, and withholding the answer doesn't make things any better.
As for LHO's lecture, I would prefer to see it saved until after the hand/round, rather than given in the middle of the auction. It too is better given by the director than by you.
#10
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2011-December-18, 18:31
jillybean, on 2011-December-18, 17:06, said:
Politely drawing attention to the “infraction” in both these examples is more appropriate than calling the director but then from there its a short step for players to be making their own, incorrect, rulings.
In the example in your original post, your opponent hadn't committed any infraction. He's entitled to ask questions at his turn, regardless of whether he is considering bidding, as long as he's not using the question to communciate with his partner or decieve his opponents. You might think that the only reason to ask at this point is in order to communicate, but you can't be sure - maybe he always asks his questions at this point, or maybe he asks questions at random.
By the way, refusing to answer a legitimate question (if that's what you did) is an infraction.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2011-December-18, 18:47
Why wasn't 3♠ alerted?
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
#12
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Posted 2011-December-18, 20:31
I am surprised that the laws allow a player, a his turn, to ask a question without exception. I think this is a major cause of UI and will frequently influence partners lead, intentionally or not.
We have laws that protect a player where an opponent has made a remark, mannerism or tempo with no demonstrable bridge reason and other laws dealing with unauthorized , extraneous information etc. If a player is permitted during an auction, to ask questions, randomly, with no demonstrable bridge reason
it appears likely to create UI and impossible for a director to determine if a question was random or either accidentally or intentionally lead directing. Wouldn't it be preferable to leave all questions that have no immediate relevance to the auction, until the auction is complete?
We have laws that protect a player where an opponent has made a remark, mannerism or tempo with no demonstrable bridge reason and other laws dealing with unauthorized , extraneous information etc. If a player is permitted during an auction, to ask questions, randomly, with no demonstrable bridge reason
it appears likely to create UI and impossible for a director to determine if a question was random or either accidentally or intentionally lead directing. Wouldn't it be preferable to leave all questions that have no immediate relevance to the auction, until the auction is complete?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
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#13
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Posted 2011-December-18, 20:32
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#14
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Posted 2011-December-18, 21:10
West didn't have his lead-directing action.
Also, I don't see why 3S would be alertable unless NS had a specific agreement like nonserious 3N.
Also, I don't see why 3S would be alertable unless NS had a specific agreement like nonserious 3N.
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Posted 2011-December-18, 21:20
jillybean, on 2011-December-18, 20:31, said:
I am surprised that the laws allow a player, a his turn, to ask a question without exception. I think this is a major cause of UI and ...
Creating unauthorised information is not an infraction:
sometimes it is unavoidable (answering questions),
sometimes it is avoidable (gratuitous remarks),
and sometimes it just happens (you just do have to think or ask questions).
Robin
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"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
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Posted 2011-December-18, 21:20
Nice xmas parties don't normally include directors 
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Posted 2011-December-18, 21:33
Once he asked the question, the UI, if any, was already transmitted. So what's the point of not answering? You can suggest that it would be better in the future that he wait until his partner makes a lead, but he can't unask the question this time.
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Posted 2011-December-18, 21:59
Quote
Law 20F1: During the auction and before the final pass, any player may request, but only at his own turn to call, an explanation of the opponents’ prior auction. He is entitled to know about calls actually made, about relevant alternative calls available that were not made, and about relevant inferences from the choice of action where these are matters of partnership understanding. Except on the instruction of the director, replies should be given by the partner of the player who made the call in question. The partner of a player who asks a question may not ask a supplementary question until his turn to call or play. Law 16 may apply and the Regulating Authority may establish regulations for written explanations.
Quote
Law 20F3: Under F1 and F2 above, a player may ask concerning a single call, but Law 16B1 may apply.
Quote
Law 16B1:
{a} After a player makes available to his partner extraneous information that may suggest a call or play, as for example by a remark, a question, a reply to a question, an unexpected* alert or failure to alert, or by unmistakable hesitation, unwonted speed, special emphasis, tone, gesture, movement or mannerism, the partner may not choose from among logical alternatives one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the extraneous information.
{b} A logical alternative action is one that, among the class of players in question and using the methods of the partnership, would be given serious consideration by a significant proportion of such players, of whom it is judged some might select it.
* i.e., unexpected in relation to the basis of his action.
{a} After a player makes available to his partner extraneous information that may suggest a call or play, as for example by a remark, a question, a reply to a question, an unexpected* alert or failure to alert, or by unmistakable hesitation, unwonted speed, special emphasis, tone, gesture, movement or mannerism, the partner may not choose from among logical alternatives one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the extraneous information.
{b} A logical alternative action is one that, among the class of players in question and using the methods of the partnership, would be given serious consideration by a significant proportion of such players, of whom it is judged some might select it.
* i.e., unexpected in relation to the basis of his action.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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Posted 2011-December-18, 22:02
barmar, on 2011-December-18, 21:34, said:
Cue bids and control bids aren't alerted in ACBL.
I wouldnt have known that for sure from just looking at the alert charts and procedures.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
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True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon