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Despite long discussions partner continues to use T/O doubles to show a "opening hand" and may be flat, as well as having classic shape. I know this could be ok in pass out seat but he also does it in direct seat.
It's got to the point where I think I should be alerting. However I am worried that ops will see this as a penalty and are equally likely to misread pertner's bid. Leaving it until the end of the auction to clarify may also mislead ops.
Any thoughts on the best approach other than bashing partner over the head with a bidding box or getting a new partner?
As always, thanks in advance,
Simon
Alerting partner's flat T/O doubles?
#1
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Posted 2012-August-29, 14:55
#2
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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:16
So he'd routinely double 1H on a 2-4-4-3 13-count? What about a 1-4-4-4 13-count?
#3
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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:31
Oppo should be aware that more than one meaning is alertable. According to the Orange Book,
"5G4: The following doubles must be alerted:
... © Any 'competitive', 'co-operative' or 'optional' double."
It seems to me that if the doubler could have a flat hand with 4 cards in opener's suit, this is sufficiently optional or card-showing that it should be alerted. It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
"5G4: The following doubles must be alerted:
... © Any 'competitive', 'co-operative' or 'optional' double."
It seems to me that if the doubler could have a flat hand with 4 cards in opener's suit, this is sufficiently optional or card-showing that it should be alerted. It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
#4
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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:47
MickyB, on 2012-August-29, 15:16, said:
So he'd routinely double 1H on a 2-4-4-3 13-count? What about a 1-4-4-4 13-count?
Both. It drives me mad but I'm more concerned about ops.
#5
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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:48
CamHenry, on 2012-August-29, 15:31, said:
Oppo should be aware that more than one meaning is alertable. According to the Orange Book,
"5G4: The following doubles must be alerted:
... © Any 'competitive', 'co-operative' or 'optional' double."
It seems to me that if the doubler could have a flat hand with 4 cards in opener's suit, this is sufficiently optional or card-showing that it should be alerted. It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
"5G4: The following doubles must be alerted:
... © Any 'competitive', 'co-operative' or 'optional' double."
It seems to me that if the doubler could have a flat hand with 4 cards in opener's suit, this is sufficiently optional or card-showing that it should be alerted. It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
Thanks. I'll alert from now on.
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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:56
CamHenry, on 2012-August-29, 15:31, said:
It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
I would have thought it so common amongst weaker players that it could not be considered unexpected.
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Posted 2012-August-29, 16:13
CamHenry, on 2012-August-29, 15:31, said:
It sounds like your partner's doubles mean "I have an opening hand with no suit I'm willing to overcall", and is unexpected enough to be alertable.
StevenG, on 2012-August-29, 15:56, said:
I would have thought it so common amongst weaker players that it could not be considered unexpected.
Pretty common amongst stronger players too. In fact, who doesn't do this? Of course in practice the stronger players are filtering the hands, but the appearance is very similar.
#8
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Posted 2012-August-29, 16:33
paulg, on 2012-August-29, 16:13, said:
Pretty common amongst stronger players too. In fact, who doesn't do this? Of course in practice the stronger players are filtering the hands, but the appearance is very similar.
um... me?
Do you really think that it's common against strong players to double a 1S opening on
KQxx
Kx
Axxx
Jxx
?
That fits the description of 'an opening hand without an overcall' pretty well.
The question on alerts of second seat doubles is going to be discussed at the next L&E meeting, although nothing would change until Aug 2013 now.
#9
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Posted 2012-August-29, 16:56
This is similar to a hand here from Monday night.
South opens 1S on AQJ42 JT QJT QJ7
West doubles. North raises to 2S and West doubles again.
West held K975 AQ5 97 AKT6
2S could make but South misplayed, partly misreading West's bidding.
North-South not very happy.
South opens 1S on AQJ42 JT QJT QJ7
West doubles. North raises to 2S and West doubles again.
West held K975 AQ5 97 AKT6
2S could make but South misplayed, partly misreading West's bidding.
North-South not very happy.
#10
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Posted 2012-August-29, 17:02
SimonFa, on 2012-August-29, 14:55, said:
Despite long discussions partner continues to use T/O doubles to show a "opening hand" and may be flat, as well as having classic shape. I know this could be ok in pass out seat but he also does it in direct seat.
I would just follow OB 5E2, and alert it if you think the meaning is potentially expected. I would say that a double which showed a weak NT or hands that all would double on fell into this category. Under 5E2, pretty much any double could have a potentially unexpected meaning, so just alert all doubles and fall back on that!
Partner will no doubt say "I have no idea why he alerted" ...
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
#11
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Posted 2012-August-29, 17:04
paulg, on 2012-August-29, 16:13, said:
Pretty common amongst stronger players too.
Was there a typo there? Replace common with uncommon is the simplest correction. Unless you mean that they are filtering out the shape-suitable ones and only doubling on them.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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Posted 2012-August-29, 17:08
CamHenry, on 2012-August-29, 15:31, said:
this is sufficiently optional or card-showing that it should be alerted.
No. We are told it is a takeout double in the opening post, so that it does not get alerted for that reason. If it was Lightner it would indeed be alerted. Then it would be a type of penalty double.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
#13
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Posted 2012-August-29, 17:58
lamford, on 2012-August-29, 17:08, said:
No. We are told it is a takeout double in the opening post, so that it does not get alerted for that reason. If it was Lightner it would indeed be alerted. Then it would be a type of penalty double.
O.K., so if they call it a takeout double, that is all the matters? Somehow I thought differently. If we call it a takeout double, and I fear bidding the other major, for instance (1H) X (2H) 2S lest we play a 4-2 fit ---IMO, that information should be available to the opponents.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#14
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Posted 2012-August-29, 23:37
Thanks everyone. Perhaps I should have been clearer, systemically we play T/O doubles which I always assume ops will take as 1444or possible 2344, hence my concern.
Simon
Simon
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Posted 2012-August-30, 02:10
SimonFa, on 2012-August-29, 23:37, said:
Thanks everyone. Perhaps I should have been clearer, systemically we play T/O doubles which I always assume ops will take as 1444or possible 2344, hence my concern.
Simon
Simon
And you should be concerned. You have knowledge that partner won't have those hand types with the frequency the opps would expect; and your own advancing actions will be affected by that knowledge. They deserve to be alerted to that information.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2012-August-30, 02:15
paulg, on 2012-August-29, 16:13, said:
Pretty common amongst stronger players too. In fact, who doesn't do this? Of course in practice the stronger players are filtering the hands, but the appearance is very similar.
FrancesHinden, on 2012-August-29, 16:33, said:
um... me?
Do you really think that it's common against strong players to double a 1S opening on
KQxx
Kx
Axxx
Jxx
?
That fits the description of 'an opening hand without an overcall' pretty well.
Do you really think that it's common against strong players to double a 1S opening on
KQxx
Kx
Axxx
Jxx
?
That fits the description of 'an opening hand without an overcall' pretty well.
It does and, of course, you and the rest of the expert community filter these hands out. But you also double on a lot of hands that are not 4441 with a singleton in their suit.
#17
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Posted 2012-August-30, 03:09
lamford, on 2012-August-29, 17:08, said:
No. We are told it is a takeout double in the opening post, so that it does not get alerted for that reason. If it was Lightner it would indeed be alerted. Then it would be a type of penalty double.
I think that it's alertable under 'potentially unexpected' (which is new: "Doubles are also alertable if they convey a potentially unexpected meaning in addition
to take-out or penalties as defined above." OB5E2). I argued for that inclusion specifically because I didn't like the 'if you think it's takeout then it's takeout' definition which (as here) can easily mislead.
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Posted 2012-August-30, 03:21
paulg, on 2012-August-30, 02:15, said:
It does and, of course, you and the rest of the expert community filter these hands out. But you also double on a lot of hands that are not 4441 with a singleton in their suit.
Let's say that the expert community is eager to make a takeout double with 1444 distribution (shortness in opponent's suit), or with distributions that are 1 card away from that. They might make these doubles with as few as 8 HCPs in a 0445 distribution. For takeout doubles on distributions that are 2 cards away from 1444, they will need more than full opening values (13-14 HCPs). Experts will double very rarely with distributions that are more than 2 cards away from 1444 (unless they have a big hand, of course). They are also perfectly capable of passing unsuitable 16 point hands.
Weaker players will pass nice distributional hands with little high card strength, but they will bid on "every hand with 13 HCPs".
Rik
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Posted 2012-August-30, 06:57
aguahombre, on 2012-August-29, 17:58, said:
O.K., so if they call it a takeout double, that is all the matters? Somehow I thought differently. If we call it a takeout double, and I fear bidding the other major, for instance (1H) X (2H) 2S lest we play a 4-2 fit ---IMO, that information should be available to the opponents.
EBU: If they call it a takeout double, it's a takeout double, regardless of the distribution.
ACBL: If they call it "strong", it's strong, no matter how many points it has.
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#20
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Posted 2012-August-30, 07:27
blackshoe, on 2012-August-30, 06:57, said:
EBU: If they call it a takeout double, it's a takeout double, regardless of the distribution.
ACBL: If they call it "strong", it's strong, no matter how many points it has.
ACBL: If they call it "strong", it's strong, no matter how many points it has.
That must be very helpful to the opponents. We discourage "naming" in favor of describing things. Except, when we don't.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)