[hoki]

Ben and Luis have both posted their views and they are entitled to them. Fortunately they both also point out the deficiencies in choice of opening bid, and that is fine.

However, they haven't answered the question as to whether it is right to teach bad habits to beginner and intermediate players. It is fair to say that different alternatives exist. If everyone would always bid the same on every hand, bridge could fast turn into quite a boring game.

I still maintain that if you gave the East hand to an expert bidding panel, there would be votes for all three actions (1S, 2S, and pass). Can't we leave it at that?

Happy New Year,
Oliver

[Free]

You call opening with the east hand a bad habbit??? I call opening with the west hand a bad habbit!

[luke warm]

i would open east 2S, even with 4 hearts.. but there's no way i could fault anyone for passing

i'd open west with 1D, rebidding 2C.. if pard bids 2H or 2S, i pass.. if it so happens that by opening i have allowed the ops a chance to make a major suit part score, well que sera.. the hand seems a tad too strong to pass out (to me), rule of 15 notwithstanding

[inquiry]

The problem with this hand, for most players, after PPP1C, was that they could not STOP bidding. Any opening action (pass out, 1S, 2S, or 1c/1d) could work out ok on this hand. But the fact that most pairs got much too high on this hand was the point. The people who stayed low, happened to open EAST with 2S.

Ben

[hotShot]

Well most is said about opening that and or not opening that hand.

One importend fact i missed here! If West opens his hand, than he knows that they should stop bidding as soon as possible!
He knows partner does not have opening strength and he holds minimum.
Keeping that in mind (even if ignoring it no problem should occure.

Have a nice day
hotShot

[hoki]

I wasn't going to post again but I feel I need to correct a factual error and while I'm at it, also reaffirm my opinion.

The factual error is in the statement that "most pairs got too high". There were nine tables in play. At three tables the bidding got too high (once up to 5H!). That is not "most", Ben. It is only half true that those "who stayed low, happened to open 2S". In fact, three pairs played in 2S; the other three played 2H, 1NT, and 2NT, all of which made. The sequence in my analysis shows how easy it should be even for intermediate players to stop in 2S.

My opinion, and Free does not specifically relate it to learners, is that opening the East hand is not necessarily something beginner/intermediate players should learn. Thanks very much for the affirmation, Luke. Thanks too, Ben, for the acceptance of more flexibility in dealing with the East hand.

Happy New Year,
Oliver

[inquiry]

Quote

I wasn't going to post again but I feel I need to correct a factual error and while I'm at it, also reaffirm my opinion.

The factual error is in the statement that "most pairs got too high". There were nine tables in play. At three tables the bidding got too high (once up to 5H!). That is not "most", Ben. It is only half true that those "who stayed low, happened to open 2S". In fact, three pairs played in 2S; the other three played 2H, 1NT, and 2NT, all of which made. The sequence in my analysis shows how easy it should be even for intermediate players to stop in 2S.

Well, since 2Spades is down one on a heart ruff,
(HK, HA, Hruff, and NS still get 1S, 1C and 1D) perhaps we have a difference in understanding the meaning of too high, since 2S is too high Oliver... :-) Maybe I should have said all but two got too high. :-)

These seven contracts are technically too high, as all seven of them can be set. So the question of what is too high or too low is immaterial from my point of view (since you raised this point)

5HE
4HE
3NW
2NW
2SE
2SE
2SE

These two are not too high, as they can make.

2HE (not too high, 2H cold)
1NW (not too high, 1NT cold)

The actual problem I have with your post, however, Oliver, is that you quoted a small section of may post in quotes and called me out by name claiming that I made a "factual" error when I said "most pairs got too high". In fact, your argument ins a stawman, because my comment was "after PPP1C.... most players got too high." So the two that opened 2S, and the one pair where south opened should not be considered. So of the six that opened 1S or 1C, four got to 2NT, 3NT, 4H or 5H. These are all clearly too high (so is 2S, but we will let that slide). So that is 4 out of six who clearly bid too much, and that is, in fact MOST.

In addition, the one or the two pairs who got to a cold contract (2H) did so by accident. The bidding went P1D; 1S-2C; 2H all pass despite 2H being alerted as "fourth suit forcing". I was kibitizing that one, A great contract, but a problem in itself, and which is why I studied the hand and posted it in the first place. So while they got to a makable contract, they in fact had serious partnership problem with the auction. Add to that 2NT is a serious overbid that made on a defensive blunder after a one level opening, the one level openers didn't fair very well at all.

Can you stop in 2S after opening 1S or 1C with these hands. Sure. Your recommended auction would work fine (P-1C; 1S-2C; 2S-all pass). No one went this way either.

My opinion of this hand and the lessons learned from it (agreeing with Luis earlier in the thread) remains. I would open with East's hand, and I would (probably) pass with West if EAST passed originally.

Ben