[Mbodell]

Playing with a good but unfamiliar partner in an ACBL club NLM MP game the following 3 bad hands came up. The basic system we were playing is 2/1 w/ 12-14 NT 1430 KC. Before the match we had agreed that we would play with a Q ask over 1430 but didn't talk about the meaning of the bids over the ask. So of course we play this hand:

Hand 1:

Scoring: MP

W   N   E   S
     1♥  P  1♠
3♣ 4♣  P  4♠
P   4NT P  5♣
P   5♦  P  5♥
P   ??

---

What does partner's bid mean and what should be bid here? [Note: 4♣ is either a raise of spades or strength showing cb, 4NT is 1430 in ♠, 5♣ says 1 or 4 KC in ♠, 5♦ should be asking about the Q of trump]

Hand 2:

Scoring: MP

W   N   E   S
           P  1♥
2♠  All Pass

---

North wanted to trap pass to defend 2S*, South didn't feel hand was worth a second bid even in the pass out seat.

Apportion the blame.

Hand 3:

Scoring: MP

W   N   E   S
           P  1♥
2♠  All Pass

---

W is new to duplicate (bid out loud, not with bid boxes, and was confused by the movement of players around the room), E is only slightly more experienced.
T1 W leads ♣A - 6 - 8 - ♠2.
T2 S leads ♠K - A - 4 - 7.
T3 W leads ♦A - 6 - 2 - 3.
T4 W leads ♠8 - T - J - Q.
T5 S leads ♦4 - 5 - K - 9.
T6 N leads ♥K - 2 - 3 - Q.
East and West both followed very smoothly.
T7 N leads ♥T - 6 - ??
East played smoothly.

Go for the drop or the finesse? We need the hearts for 0 losers since we've lost 1 ♠, 1♦, and are missing the top remaining trump. 8 ever-9 never versus restricted chance, versus table feel judging non-experienced players.

[the hog]

Hand 1. Why do you bid Blackwood with a void? After pd's 4S bid your hand is so powerful I would bid 5NT Grand slam force.

Hand 2. Nth 100% Since when is the stiff K a penalty double. The Nth hand is far too powerful and far too trump poor to pass a re-opening X

Hand 3. It looks to me like West is 3226 shape. So play for the drop.

[hrothgar]

Hand 1: In an amusing coincidence, I had exactly the same problem on Saturday. Storng partner, no firm agreements, Queen ask during a RKCB sequence.

From my perspective, the 5♥ response should

(a) Promise the Queen of Spades
(b) Deny a hand suitable for a bid of 5NT+ (IE, partner should be denying a side suit King)

I agree with The Hog that a Blakwood sequence is far from ideal. I think that you would have been better served bidding 5♣ (Exclusion) over the 3♣ weak jump shift.

Hand 2: North is stark raving mad. North has Spade shortage. Either

(a) Partner will have Spade length and will pass out 2♠ OR
(b) The partner of the 2♠ bidder will be able to advance OR
© Partner will double, North will convert and you're defending 2SX when the opponents have a 10 card fit.

Which of these contingencies was North "hoping" for?

[jtfanclub]

Hand 1... I don't mind RKC here, if you don't have a firm agreement on what 5♣ means. Obviously, if your methods allow for fancier stuff, great. 6♠ stands out here now.

Hand 2... you can only trap pass if you have length in the suit. The more you have in their suit, the more likely partner has another call.

On this hand, North just doubles, and hope that partner leaves it in, which is not impossible.

[TimG]

Hand 1: I suspect you were thinking about seven, but off a keycard which could be the ace of trumps, I think seven is a bit over ambitious. I'd shoot out 6♠ at this point. I agree with The Hog, 5N would have been much more effective than 4N.

Hand 2: North is nuts to be thinking about defending.

Hand 3: If west started with AJ8 of trumps, I don't think he would have led one at trick 4. So, playing the Ten from dummy was probably a no-win play.

I believe beginners play the Queen from QJ doubleton far closer to 100% of the time than 50% of the time. They just think it's more deceptive to drop the highest honor. So, I don't think restricted choice is as significant here as it would normally be.

Partner's 3♠ call was an overbid.

Quote

Playing with a good but unfamiliar partner in an ACBL club NLM MP game

"Good NLM" is an oxymoron.

[jtfanclub]

TimG, on Sep 10 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

Quote

Playing with a good but unfamiliar partner in an ACBL club NLM MP game

"Good NLM" is an oxymoron.

Gee, thanks.

There are lots of people who aren't life masters who are plenty good. Maybe he doesn't play in tournaments or ACBL games much. Or maybe he's just started. Who knows?

[ralph23]

TimG, on Sep 10 2007, 10:20 AM, said:

"Good NLM" is an oxymoron.

Is "bad LM" an oxymoron too?

[ralph23]

Hand 1: 5♥ shows the Queen of trumps and the King of hearts. However, there's a problem with that interpretation!

So partner is on a different wavelength. Hmm. In that case seems like shooting it out in 6 is the right bid, although I bet he has the Queen of trumps and length, and that you make seven.

Was he trying to say that he was void in ♥ via the 5♥ bid?

[ralph23]

I don't get Hand 2 at all. North had a stiff ♠. That's not a trap pass. I'd probably double (negative double) with North's hand to keep both the minor suits in play ... both minors, short in overcaller's suit, tolerance for opener's suit .... seems fine.

North to blame 100%.

[SoTired]

I think from hand #2 we can determine partner's level

A 5NT GSF was the perfect bid. Now we are stuck. Just bid 6S over 5C.

[Mbodell]

So I was actually South on all 3 hands.

Hand 1:
I've most often played that cheapest non-trump means you have the Q, trump means you don't have the Q. This lets 5NT sometimes still be in the picture for K asks (and I usually do K count, not specific K, so this isn't redundant) and also sometimes 5 of trump as a bid to go if you've got undisclosed more partner. I've sometimes played trump means you don't have the Q, otherwise cheapest suit in which you have a K or NT with no K. On this hand I had AQ-sixth of spade, singleton heart, 3 low diamonds, J-third clubs and felt 5 H would be safe as if partner plays my number 1 way no confusion and if partner plays my number 2 way he would likely have ♥K, and not expect an additional K, and if not I do have second round control.

Partner bid 5♠ and I passed. We made 7 which was good for 2/5 MP (one -100, one 680, 3 1460).

If I had been N I would have opened 2♣ and everything would have been different anyways.

Hand 2:
We set them 3 for 300 for 0/5 MP (one pair found the slam, the rest in game our way). I knew my partners bid was a little silly after the fact, but wasn't sure if some would have tried an aggressive 2NT or 3♥ bid with my hand.

Hand 3:
I finessed for the ♥J and lost for -50, good for 0/5 MP. There was a 420, 170, and 3 100s our way. LHO had 2=2=4=5 distribution while RHO had 3=2=3=5. I had thought that beginner would have played J for QJ but partner also thought beginner would near 100% play Q from QJ to be "tricky". Also, give LHO had Ax of trump he may have lead a singleton to try to set up a ruff.

Overall we still had a good night and ended up with 64.6% (so I stand by that partner and I are good NLM - in spite of evidence from these hands to the contrary), but these 3 were the problem boards (without them it was 71.9%).

[ralph23]

Mbodell, on Sep 10 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

So I was actually South on all 3 hands.

Hand 1:
I've most often played that cheapest non-trump means you have the Q, trump means you don't have the Q. This lets 5NT sometimes still be in the picture for K asks (and I usually do K count, not specific K, so this isn't redundant) and also sometimes 5 of trump as a bid to go if you've got undisclosed more partner. I've sometimes played trump means you don't have the Q, otherwise cheapest suit in which you have a K or NT with no K. On this hand I had AQ-sixth of spade, singleton heart, 3 low diamonds, J-third clubs and felt 5 H would be safe as if partner plays my number 1 way no confusion and if partner plays my number 2 way he would likely have ♥K, and not expect an additional K, and if not I do have second round control.

If you had the Queen (which you did) and no side King (and you didn't have one), just bid 6 of the trump suit. Returning to FIVE of the trump suit means you don't have Her Majesty.

I think you out-thought yourself on this one. . Partner wanted to know if you had her. You did. You made a bid that was liable to misunderstanding, and you didn't make one that would have precisely described your hand.

[Mbodell]

ralph23, on Sep 10 2007, 03:56 PM, said:

Mbodell, on Sep 10 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

So I was actually South on all 3 hands.

Hand 1:
I've most often played that cheapest non-trump means you have the Q, trump means you don't have the Q.  This lets 5NT sometimes still be in the picture for K asks (and I usually do K count, not specific K, so this isn't redundant) and also sometimes 5 of trump as a bid to go if you've got undisclosed more partner.  I've sometimes played trump means you don't have the Q, otherwise cheapest suit in which you have a K or NT with no K.  On this hand I had AQ-sixth of spade, singleton heart, 3 low diamonds, J-third clubs and felt 5 H would be safe as if partner plays my number 1 way no confusion and if partner plays my number 2 way he would likely have ♥K, and not expect an additional K, and if not I do have second round control.

If you had the Queen (which you did) and no side King (and you didn't have one), just bid 6 of the trump suit. Returning to FIVE of the trump suit means you don't have Her Majesty.

I think you out-thought yourself on this one. . Partner wanted to know if you had her. You did. You made a bid that was liable to misunderstanding, and you didn't make one that would have precisely described your hand.

Yes, I agree. Now I know I will talk over with partner what follow ups to Q ask are, and with this hand in the undiscussed case should bid 6S since some on this thread thought cheapest bid meant no trump Q. And in an undiscussed auction with ♠Q and the ♥K maybe I should bid 6♥ not 5♥ to avoid this problem as well, or might partner take that to be an offer to play in ♥ as well as ♠? Easiest action to help partner and self not make a mistake: discuss ahead of time.

[TimG]

jtfanclub, on Sep 10 2007, 09:32 AM, said:

TimG, on Sep 10 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

Quote

Playing with a good but unfamiliar partner in an ACBL club NLM MP game

"Good NLM" is an oxymoron.

Gee, thanks.

There are lots of people who aren't life masters who are plenty good. Maybe he doesn't play in tournaments or ACBL games much. Or maybe he's just started. Who knows?

When I was a NLM, I thought I was a good player. I was wrong. I'm still not a particularly good player.

You are correct, there are a few good players who happen to be NLM. One year, I was in NYC at a regional where they announced the Unit winners of the mini-McKenny races. Two of the winners in NLM categories were Michael Rosenberg and Bjorn Fallenius. Obviously, they are good players. (I suspect both are now LMs.)

Anyway, I did not mean to be insulting.