[Cascade]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ AQJ82 ♥ KJT8 ♦ ♣ AQ87

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♠
 Pass  1NT   Pass  ?

If your solution involves bidding 2♥ then what is a minimum hand for partner that would raise 2♥ with four trumps? with five trumps?

[gwnn]

3♥, no gadget.

[P_Marlowe]

2H, followed by 3C, if partner bids 2S.

This will show a 5-4-3-? shape and a highly inv. hand,
I guess this is pretty close to what I actually hold.

I would raise 2H with 8HCP and 4 card support, make it
more distriutional and the HCP count can drop.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[aguahombre]

Really hate 3H. Forget gadgets like 2C, since OP stated no gadgets. That leaves 2H. 8 and five trumps would be my rock minimum for a raise to 3H. this hand is so rare, compared with all the other hands that would rebid 2H, that it might be resulting to lower the "raise" standards here. All minor suit quacks are suspect, so I guess Aces and major suit honors should be considered if deciding whether to make a raise.

[nigel_k]

2♥.

This is a horrible situation with a heart fit because opener and responder both have an enormous range so bidding is going to be inaccurate. For that reason I don't hate 3♥ but I still wouldn't do it.

I would almost always raise to 3♥ with five card support. With four card support, 8 HCP sounds about right if they are working. Something like xx AQxx Qxxx xxx would be a pass, but add ♦J and it's a raise. We're going to get too high quite often unfortunately.

[neilkaz]

This is not a fun hand for S/A sans a gadget. 3♥ is GF and seems a bit optimistic. I'd not mind 3♥ if my ♠8 were the 10 and if my ♣8 also were the ♣10 then I'd go for 3♥ for sure.

As it stands, a cautious 2♥.

I'd raise 2♥ to 3♥ with 4 card support and a working 8 count..ie honors I expect to take or help take tricks with.

[peachy]

2C will be unlikely to be passed if pd is weak while 2H might be passed with hands where 4H is cold. Really hate not showing hearts but hate even more JS in hearts.

[Fluffy]

2NT GF, showing 4 hearts latter. I get to hide the clubs.

If not playing these methods it is clsoe between 2 and 3 hearts (2 clubs leaves you stuck opposite a most common response of 2 spades). I would go with 3.

[Codo]

1 ♠ 2♥ 3♣ sounds like a good idea.

[skjaeran]

Playing with a recent partner:

1♠ - 1NT
2♦
Transfer, planning to rebid 3♣.

With other partners:
1♠ - 1NT
2NT
GF relay

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Aug 17 2009, 04:18 PM, said:

3♥, no gadget.

This gets my vote

[pooltuna]

neilkaz, on Aug 17 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

This is not a fun hand for S/A sans a gadget. 3♥ is GF and seems a bit optimistic. I'd not mind 3♥ if my ♠8 were the 10 and if my ♣8 also were the ♣10 then I'd go for 3♥ for sure.

As it stands, a cautious 2♥.

I'd raise 2♥ to 3♥ with 4 card support and a working 8 count..ie honors I expect to take or help take tricks with.

K&R Hand Evaluator
This will run the Kaplan and Rubens hand evaluator (knr). Type in a hand, something like
KQxxx QJT2 --- Ak102, and I'll tell you how many points they think it's worth.

New feature: this also prints Danny Kleinman's HCP evaluation.

K&R (AQJ82 KJT8 --- AQ87) = 20.90
DK = 18-

i.e. 3♥ is a no-brainer. Can something go wrong. Sure, you could get out of bed and walk out your front door and get hit by a bus too.

[Cascade]

pooltuna, on Aug 19 2009, 08:17 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Aug 17 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

This is not a fun hand for S/A sans a gadget.  3♥ is GF and seems a bit optimistic. I'd not mind 3♥ if my ♠8 were the 10 and if my ♣8 also were the ♣10 then I'd go for 3♥ for sure.

As it stands, a cautious 2♥.

I'd raise 2♥ to 3♥ with 4 card support and a working 8 count..ie honors I expect to take or help take tricks with.

K&R Hand Evaluator
This will run the Kaplan and Rubens hand evaluator (knr). Type in a hand, something like
KQxxx QJT2 --- Ak102, and I'll tell you how many points they think it's worth.

New feature: this also prints Danny Kleinman's HCP evaluation.

K&R (AQJ82 KJT8 --- AQ87) = 20.90
DK = 18-

i.e. 3♥ is a no-brainer. Can something go wrong. Sure, you could get out of bed and walk out your front door and get hit by a bus too.

This sort of argument is flawed:

1. K&R is not proven to be an accurate hand evaluator

2. There is no account of the bidding. K&R is attempting to evaluate a hand in a vacuum. Whatever the hand was worth initially it has gone down in value when partner could not raise spades nor voluntarily introduce one of our other suits.

[ONEferBRID]

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

[Cascade]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

... and this is standard?

[aguahombre]

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

... and this is standard?

yes, in a forum.

[ONEferBRID]

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Aug 19 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

... and this is standard?

What part didn't you like?
....the 2C rebid after a forcing 1NT ?
( I agree w/Peachy that 2C is "less likely to be passed out" )

[P_Marlowe]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 18 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

1S  - 1NTF
2C* - 2D ( expected )
2H ( should describe this hand )
_____________________
* 2C could be as few as 3 cards

Brilliant idea.

What do you think partner will bid, if he happens to hold
the highly unusal 2-4-5-2 pattern?
If he bids D, he should go back to BI clase lesson, he will
bid 2S.
2D in this seq. showes a 6 carder, and the main task
for partner is to show a preference for my suits.

You have the chance to show 9 cards, and you choose the bid
which showes 8.

I can understand the 3H bidders, you can upgrade this hand to
a game force, I wont do it, but it is ok, but 2C is just ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And I currently ignoring the issue about the meaning of 2H
in this seq., at least in some parts of Europe 2H would be FSF,
it is natural in NA, but there are some smaller continents on
the over shores of the oceans, which may play 2H different.

[ONEferBRID]

You " can understand the 3H bidders, you can upgrade this hand ( 17 hcp ) to
a game force, I wont do it, but it is ok" ( having a pretty good feeling that partner has Diam ) .
.. So, instead of having a suit preference of 3 suits shown at the 2-level ( btw, 2H is never 4SF in this auction ... but it should not only show this shape, but "extras" for such a bid), you prefer only showing 2 suits at the same 2-level or GF at the 3-level...... although, I have no problem with the immediate 2H re-bid.

Let's see what partner's hand is ...

[marcD]

aguahombre, on Aug 17 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

Really hate 3H. Forget gadgets like 2C, since OP stated no gadgets. That leaves 2H. 8 and five trumps would be my rock minimum for a raise to 3H. this hand is so rare, compared with all the other hands that would rebid 2H, that it might be resulting to lower the "raise" standards here. All minor suit quacks are suspect, so I guess Aces and major suit honors should be considered if deciding whether to make a raise.

Hate 3♥ too but if I rebid 2♥ (the "reasonnable" choice) there are too many hands where partner is going to pass and 4♥ has some play or is cold . I think 3♥ is the practical bid under the system conditions.