[han]

gnasher, on 2010-December-27, 15:22, said:

But in the sequence:

1♣ 1♥ 1♠ pass
2♣ 2♥

you play 3♦ as forcing, and double followed by 3♦ as competitive.

I know you weren't asking me, but if I had a competitive 5-2-5-1, I wouldn't be doubling planning to bid 3D, I would double and pass most of partner's calls.

[whereagles]

Well, I'll just stick to the boring 3NT bid.

[CSGibson]

---

This was actually the full hand and auction (you may have noticed that some of the spots changed; these are the accurate ones).

I have some thoughts about this hand - One is that South's proper bid over 2♥ should be double, in my opinion, with 3♠ being a distant 2nd choice. This is no longer a game forcing hand on the auction, as our marginal game force has gotten worse and worse, so I would even think about 2♠ at matchpoints. I think that ♦ should be a serious suggestion of strain, not just a make-do force with values in the suit.

2nd is the problem I gave to you as North - what to do over 3♦. I agree with those of you who said 3♥ was the best call over this, with 4♦ the 2nd best call in my opinion (and the call I made at the table). I have no sympathy for those that bid NT, however, because of the negative inference given by partner not bidding 3♥ - if partner had a fitting club A or K, he would have just asked for a stopper, assuming his fitting honor would give you a decent chance of running the suit. When he doesn't bid 3♥, you are never going to be able to use your clubs as a source of tricks for NT, because you "know" it's going to take at least 2 rounds of the suit to get them going. That means that you have to depend on partner for approximately 6-7 tricks while only allowing for losing the lead once. It seems that you won't have the tempo for 3N except when 5 or 6 ♦ is on ice anyway.


3rd is a different problem - what do you bid as South with semi-solid spades, diamond values, and a hand too good just to go to 4♠ directly? Then is the other time when I think 3♦, planning on converting to spades at the appropriate level, maybe made on a shorter suit like this - you know the strain already, you are just delaying the auction to get more information/help partner evaluate.

Anyway, having thought about this hand for too long, this is what I came up with. Please feel free to agree or disagree with any of my reasoning (like you need my permission...), I'm interested in finding out what other thoughts there are out there about the hand or anything I've said here.

[whereagles]

CSGibson, on 2010-December-28, 22:30, said:

1. I have some thoughts about this hand - One is that South's proper bid over 2♥ should be double, in my opinion, with 3♠ being a distant 2nd choice. This is no longer a game forcing hand on the auction, as our marginal game force has gotten worse and worse, so I would even think about 2♠ at matchpoints. I think that ♦ should be a serious suggestion of strain, not just a make-do force with values in the suit.

2. 2nd is the problem I gave to you as North - what to do over 3♦. I agree with those of you who said 3♥ was the best call over this, with 4♦ the 2nd best call in my opinion (and the call I made at the table). I have no sympathy for those that bid NT, however, because of the negative inference given by partner not bidding 3♥ - if partner had a fitting club A or K, he would have just asked for a stopper, assuming his fitting honor would give you a decent chance of running the suit. When he doesn't bid 3♥, you are never going to be able to use your clubs as a source of tricks for NT, because you "know" it's going to take at least 2 rounds of the suit to get them going. That means that you have to depend on partner for approximately 6-7 tricks while only allowing for losing the lead once. It seems that you won't have the tempo for 3N except when 5 or 6 ♦ is on ice anyway.

3. 3rd is a different problem - what do you bid as South with semi-solid spades, diamond values, and a hand too good just to go to 4♠ directly? Then is the other time when I think 3♦, planning on converting to spades at the appropriate level, maybe made on a shorter suit like this - you know the strain already, you are just delaying the auction to get more information/help partner evaluate.

Anyway, having thought about this hand for too long, this is what I came up with. Please feel free to agree or disagree with any of my reasoning (like you need my permission...), I'm interested in finding out what other thoughts there are out there about the hand or anything I've said here.

allright, I'll be free to disagree with or without permission

1. If you really think the hand is no longer game forcing, by all means bid 2♠ or dbl or whatnot. But gimme 100 experienced good players and at least 99 of them are going to drive to game regardless. It's red at imps: you bid first and ask questions later.

In light of that, I find pard's hand quite difficult to bid. Even if you play 3♥ here as just a strong hand, it's not clear to opener what to rebid. That makes 3♦ a reasonable bid in context, but yes, dbl is probably the better bid. Certainly better than 3/4♠, which puts the eggs all in one basked.


2. Being a 3NT bidder, I confess if pard has his bid, say e.g.

AJ87xx
xx
AQJx
x

I'd prefer 6♦ to 3NT At least it has some play for.. lol. Going for my 3NT bid I have only the fact sometimes people don't have their bids, plus some cherry picked scenarios.


3. I don't think that hand will come up often and even if it does, you're better off going quietly at 4♠.

Well, whaddayaknow... I only disagreed in nr.3

[han]

I may be way out there for saying this but.. I don't bid 3D here on a 3-card suit.

[pooltuna]

han, on 2010-December-29, 05:07, said:

I may be way out there for saying this but.. I don't bid 3D here on a 3-card suit.

That is because you are screwed in ♠ several ways and you just ask partner if he has a ♥ stopper with a 3♥ call. Other possible calls are a slightly undervaluing 3♠ call

[gnasher]

If you're going to game-force with that responding hand, it seems obvious to double. If that gets 2♠ you bid 4♠; if opener bids anything else you bid 3♥.

[Fluffy]

Never bid 3 card suits on competition, double instead

[gszeszycki]

your hand has gotten worse as bidding has progressed single !C opposite p long suit xxx in opps overcall a great source of losers. 3N (if p is minimum) is probably not making best shot appears to be 4s and since we are red at
the best shot is probably 3s (over 2h). There is a serious possibility P is short in spades and even 3s may be in peril but you have to try. At MP you can at least consider 2s (which cant be dead minimum becasue it is a free bid)
but at imps that is too big a position where even the spade T from P might make 4s viable.