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Bridgetopics Is it worth the cost?

#21 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 12:09

View Postfred, on 2011-January-20, 09:55, said:

Anyway, yesterday I contacted Jan to bring these matters to his attention and to ask for an explanation.

...

Bottom line is that it sounds like Jan acknowledges that they had had some technical problems and that some mistakes have been made. Hopefully these issues have been resolved.



I too contacted Jan yesterday through the form on his website and by a direct email to "editor at ..." which is an email address for Jan given on the bridgetopics website.

When I initially received the email from them I responded within a day or so and followed that up some time later when I had received no response from them.

None of these emails have been even acknowledged - no courtesy reply or form letter reply as often happens through forms and no personal reply from Jan or anyone else at bridgetopics.

I receive hundreds if not thousands of spam mails every month many of these are caught in filters some of my mail goes through two filters one at my ISP and one through my gmail account and yet some still get through.

Others have commented that my reaction is "over the top" but it is undeniable that spam is a serious problem that we would be better off without. It is so serious that laws with hefty fines are in place to try to combat the problem.

Despite Jan's response to Fred bridgetopics continued lack of response to other direct messages suggests to me that they are at best apathetic to the problems that their spam causes.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#22 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 12:20

View Postgnasher, on 2011-January-20, 12:03, said:

I don't know about Wayne, but I believe that Frances is, or was, the editor of her county bridge association's magazine. That might explain why she got onto a "bridge press" list.

As for the repeated messages, that's the sort of thing that happens when people without any direct-marketing experience try to do their own direct marketing. But it's usually a cock-up rather than an evil conspiracy to fill up people's inboxes.


I might accept that it was a cock-up but I have now made several attempts to contact these people regarding this matter and they do not bother to respond.

It does not leave me feeling that they are a reputable business with honest intentions.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#23 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 13:48

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-20, 11:01, said:

Uhuh, the "technical problems" excuse for spam.

I think the intent was to excuse not replying to the complaints. Jan seems to be claiming that they never send any spam in the first place, only the opt-in newsletters. So either he's clueless about what's going on in his organization, he's lying, or a third party was sending this spam about his site without their knowledge.

#24 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 14:54

Why can't I vote up Cascade's posts? Is it because he is a yellow or has he somehow been blacklisted?

Anyway, I agree with Gnasher.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#25 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 15:41

View PostCascade, on 2011-January-20, 11:39, said:

Clearly you have not read and understood my posts. My reaction is not merely to the unsolicited email but to their continued lack of response to my emails.

In that regard I sent them a further two emails yesterday one through the form on their website and one directly to editor@ or whatever the address I found quoted on their website.

These people still continue to ignore my questions. Questions which I think are entirely reasonable given that they chose initially to contact me.

I will repeat that in my experience this business acts immorally and antisocially and quite possibly illegally in the way that it tries to attract customers and further they have shown no sign of acknowledging that their business practices are improper by continuing to ignore questions that are sent to them on this matter.


On the contrary, I have read and fully understood your posts, I suspect I have understood more about them than you have told us. In the meantime, I note that instead of acknowledging that your response might have naive and over the top, you not only repeated your original post, but added "and quite possibly illegally" and "It does not leave me feeling that they are a reputable business with honest intentions." as well. Doesn't matter to me, we who read these forums are well aware of your white hat/black hat view of the world and expect this. Read Frances's post for an example of a more mature response to the same issue.

Here is one of the (several) posts where you told us you emailed them twice:

View PostCascade, on 2011-January-19, 18:47, said:

Maybe.

However I took the trouble to write to them twice regarding their unsolicited email. They did not bother to respond. This suggests to me that they are not at all concerned about their strategy of using unsolicited email.

It would cost them nothing to apologize but their lack of response just indicates to me that they don't give a damn about those that they mailed they are just interested in try to get some money out of them.


I suggest to you that if you seriously expected a response, you would have asked someone who has a more nuanced view of the world, or perhaps someone with excellent people-skills to compose your emails. An outraged email from Sir Wayne the doer of good deeds, on a crusade to rid the world of the totally evil, and without redeeming features, bridgetopics, is unlikely to get a response. The people you have cast in the black hat role don't know that they are evil, they think they are regular human beings like everyone else. So, to send a series of emails which assumes that they are the source of wickedness in the world (you see, I have understood more from your posts than you thought!) is unlikely to produce the response you wanted.

Anyway, I know this post won't change anyone's behaviour, so I think that after all Roger had the best idea.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#26 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 15:55

View Postgnasher, on 2011-January-20, 12:03, said:

I don't know about Wayne, but I believe that Frances is, or was, the editor of her county bridge association's magazine. That might explain why she got onto a "bridge press" list.



Not the email address that was used. The newsletter address does get assorted adverts/press releases, though as it's not give online anywhere, it doesn't do too badly spamwise.

I didn't much mind getting the first email, which said something like "we're only going to send one email, then stop" even though I was surprised at the address they used (it was my work email address, which I freely admit a lot of bridge players know and use, but isn't used on the internet or bulletin boards). It was the additional mails. But it sounds as if they (may have) had either some technical screw-up or a rush of over-enthusiasm.
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#27 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2011-January-20, 20:42

View Post655321, on 2011-January-20, 15:41, said:

On the contrary, I have read and fully understood your posts, I suspect I have understood more about them than you have told us. In the meantime, I note that instead of acknowledging that your response might have naive and over the top, you not only repeated your original post, but added "and quite possibly illegally" and "It does not leave me feeling that they are a reputable business with honest intentions." as well. Doesn't matter to me, we who read these forums are well aware of your white hat/black hat view of the world and expect this. Read Frances's post for an example of a more mature response to the same issue.

Here is one of the (several) posts where you told us you emailed them twice:



I suggest to you that if you seriously expected a response, you would have asked someone who has a more nuanced view of the world, or perhaps someone with excellent people-skills to compose your emails. An outraged email from Sir Wayne the doer of good deeds, on a crusade to rid the world of the totally evil, and without redeeming features, bridgetopics, is unlikely to get a response. The people you have cast in the black hat role don't know that they are evil, they think they are regular human beings like everyone else. So, to send a series of emails which assumes that they are the source of wickedness in the world (you see, I have understood more from your posts than you thought!) is unlikely to produce the response you wanted.

Anyway, I know this post won't change anyone's behaviour, so I think that after all Roger had the best idea.


Do you have a leak on my email that you have formed those opinions of them?

I suspect not since it does not seem likely that you have read them.

This is the entire content of the first email

"Can you please tell me where you got my email address from?

Thanks"

and the follow up email

"Hi

Two months and no reply.

Can you please inform me why I received spam from your business?"

There is no assumption of "a source of wickedness" and no evidence of outrage in those emails. In fact the brief content in those emails is the antithesis of your assumptions.

They simply have not had the courtesy to respond.

Perhaps you think that their spam policy to attract new business is acceptable perhaps you think that ignoring responses from those they chose to spam is acceptable.

I happen to not think so. I imagine that a majority or at least a very significant minority consider spam unacceptable.

I would be happy to hear from Jan or Eric or the others involved in this process with an explanation for their behaviour. I have certainly given them plenty of opportunity to explain. They have chosen not to. Therefore when someone asks for a recommendation about their business I will give my opinion based on the way that they have chosen to treat me and others they have spammed. After all that is the primary source of information that I have about them.

Maybe you think their behaviour is acceptable. Maybe you think that Roger et al being rude to me for expressing my opinion is acceptable.
I happen to find neither acceptable nor reasonable.

I hope that you would think that my response to bridgetopics shown above was reasonable and polite. I hope that you would think that their marketing behaviour and lack of response to those reasonable emails are not reasonable approaches to business.

As I said I would be happy for Jan or someone else from bridgetopics to contact me. Indeed I would welcome it. Given that the responded to Fred within a day I was hopeful that my two efforts to contact them yesterday would have met with a favourable response. But alas there is nothing in my inbox.

Given that it has taken three months without a response I won't be holding my breath for a response. In the meantime as word of mouth works if I am asked about my opinion of their organization I will give details of my very negative experience in my dealings or lack there of with them.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#28 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 01:58

A shame that nobody comments on the quality of the content, whether it is worth the money. I can't get exited about unsolicited emails. Happens all the time.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#29 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 02:41

I have learned in this thread that I don't have as much trouble deleting e-mails as other people do.

I have not learned whether anyone has any opinions as to the content of the website, which was the original question before everything got sidetracked. Alas.
Chris Gibson
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#30 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 12:06

I have no trouble deleting emails (and have no dog in this fight, having not to my knowledge received one).

But I do tend to agree with Cascade in two points:
- if you send me unsolicited business email, I'm not using your service, no matter how good it is, because 20 years on from Cantor and Siegel, people should know that that is the kind of advertising not to try. *Especially* if they send one "advertising" email, *stating that it will be the only email they will send to me*, and then do it again.
- if I believe that the company doing this is legitimate, and possibly unfamiliar with netiquette, I will ask if they meant to do this, and if so, why it was a bad idea. I have, in the past, from said companies, got "oops, thanks" or the equivalent (sometimes the traditional passive voice-non-apology "we're sorry you felt that way about our business"). If it's not legit, I *always* get "no response" - and probably more emails now that they know the address is valid.

In other words, they did something scam artists do, and when Cascade pointed this out and asked why, they did something else scam artists do. They may not *be* scam artists - I highly doubt with the names given that they are! - but having that appearance isn't good for them, as can be seen here.
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#31 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 13:35

View PostCSGibson, on 2011-January-21, 02:41, said:

I have learned in this thread that I don't have as much trouble deleting e-mails as other people do.

I have not learned whether anyone has any opinions as to the content of the website, which was the original question before everything got sidetracked. Alas.


I had become aware of the site before, visited it, and decided no thanks. in response to this thread, I re-visited. I still have not joined. As near as I could get it, the sample, which was supposed to be on support doubles, seemed to be a video with comments about the Buffet cup, some comments about the site, how good it will be and so on. I am open to considering it but I think that I do need some substantial opportunity to try it out first. I have a lot of bridge stuff. Books, cds, some Bridgemaster deals, etc. This site so far hasn't tempted me to add them in.

Your friend that recommended it: What features were attractive to him/her? I haven't ruled it out, rather I looked briefly and moved on.

I doubt this reply much helps the OP, but I thought I would post it for whatever the bridgetopics folks might find useful in it. Yes, bridge advice from Rodwell is of interest. Obviously.
Ken
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#32 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 14:14

When I looked at the sample, I got an article by Rodwell on Support Doubles.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#33 User is offline   dustinst22 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 17:18

View Postgnasher, on 2011-January-21, 14:14, said:

When I looked at the sample, I got an article by Rodwell on Support Doubles.


Same, good article.
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#34 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 18:22

ok, i probably didn't give it enough thought. Still, if they want my business, they need to make it more user friendly for klutzes like me.
Ken
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#35 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 19:53

Spamming is poor business practise, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with deleting unwanted email. Look at the disreputable spam emails you get attempting to sell you dodgy things. Would you buy a used car from these men?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#36 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 19:57

The unthinkable has happened: I agree with the hog!
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#37 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 21:52

Deliberate spamming is one thing. Screwing up is something else.
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#38 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 21:58

And using screwing up as an excuse for spamming is something else again. How can you innocently spam? Please!
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#39 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 22:01

I didn't say someone who spams is "innocent", I said he's not necessarily as guilty as someone who does it deliberately.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#40 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-January-21, 22:36

View Postblackshoe, on 2011-January-21, 22:01, said:

I didn't say someone who spams is "innocent", I said he's not necessarily as guilty as someone who does it deliberately.


Is that the same as being somewhat pregnant?
I ask again, how can you innocently spam someone?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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