[Fluffy]

nobody vul, Match Points


1♦-1♥
1♠-??

we play XYZ (2♣ forcing a 2♦ rebid by partner unless having extras, 2♦ being GF)


♠62
♥J10652
♦AK842
♣J

What would you bid?

[Mbodell]

2♣...3♦ to invite with diamonds seems ok to me. True we might miss the 5-3 hearts, but partner is much more likely to be 4243 or 4144 or 4153 or 4252 than 4342 or 4351 and your heart suit is terrible.

[andy_h]

If partner can be balanced then I will invite in diamonds at the 3 level. If partner promises an unbalanced hand I will try a 4D invite. I have little experience with XYZ here but what's the difference between a direct 3D now as opposed to going via 2C? Can one of them be a distributional invite?

[cherdano]

I assume Fluffy is worried about playing 3D with a 5-3 heart fit available. One solution is for opener to break the 2C->2D relay with 3 hearts and a minimum. The other solution is to invite with 2C->2d->2H whenever you have 5 hearts - but on this hand, we obviously don't want to play a 5-2 heart fit with a 5-4 diamond fit available.
(Obviously, playing 4th-suit forcing to game you have exactly the same problem.)

@Andy: I think it's most common to play a direct 3D as a distributional hand with slam interest.

[jschafer]

As Andy might be suggesting, I think a direct 3♦ here should show 4♥ and after 2♣-2♦ it should show 5♥ with both being invitational.

[wank]

assuming you raise to 2♥ immediately on minimum 4351 shapes, this is an easy invite in diamonds, via 2♣ presumably, because opener will bid again if he's got 3 hearts.

if you don't raise with 3 card support and a suitable shape, i'd say just take it on the chin and invite in diamonds anyway - it's not very likely partner's 4351 and the opps aren't bidding clubs. even if he does, he's likely to accept the invite light on the basis of a double fit.

[cherdano]

 wank, on 2011-February-20, 11:17, said:

assuming you raise to 2♥ immediately on minimum 4351 shapes, this is an easy invite in diamonds, via 2♣ presumably, because opener will bid again if he's got 3 hearts.

if you don't raise with 3 card support and a suitable shape, i'd say just take it on the chin and invite in diamonds anyway - it's not very likely partner's 4351 and the opps aren't bidding clubs. even if he does, he's likely to accept the invite light on the basis of a double fit.

For most of us, opener could be 4342.

[wank]

 cherdano, on 2011-February-20, 11:49, said:

For most of us, opener could be 4342.

i was under the impression only the french bid this way, and the rest of the world rebid 1nt to show a balanced hand, but you may be right

[MrAce]

I wrote this b4, but seems like noone is reading.

If u play XYZ or 2 way nmf, u need to use 2NT bid as artificial (since nat 2NT will be shown after 2♣-2♦)

In XYZ, if opener's minor is ♣;

1♣--1♥
1♠--2NT = shows a sign off in 3♣ or will reopen after pd bids 3♣ to show 5-5 gf hands with a void.(or whatever u and ur pd likes to fill there)

BUT, opener's minor is ♦, you can use it to show 5-5 invitation hands or 4♥+6-7♣ sign off or 5-5 gf with void hands

1♦--1♥
1♠--2NT **
3♣--after this


pass 4♥+6 or 7 good ♣
3♦ showing 5♥+5♦ (if u wanted to sign off in ♦ u could do it by passing 2♦ after a 2♣-2♦ relays)
3♥ showing ♣ void and 3♠ showing ♠ void 5-5 or 6-5 in reds (or u can put something else of your own taste, or u can make this even with gf hands))

The usage of artificial 2 NT allows you to put some picture hands in it, which takes a lot of weight from 2♣ invitation hands as well as 2♦ GF hands. Dont get me wrong, these picture hands will NOT come a lot and the goal is not to gain when they come but when they DONT come, since you will be much more accurate in normal auctions knowing pd can not have any of these. Surprisingly to me, most people i know who uses XYZ or 2 way nmf, admitted that they almost never used or even discussed the 2NT bid, which gives u more space than i just wrote and u can fill it with choice of your own taste.

[mike777]

 Mbodell, on 2011-February-20, 05:03, said:

2♣...3♦ to invite with diamonds seems ok to me. True we might miss the 5-3 hearts, but partner is much more likely to be 4243 or 4144 or 4153 or 4252 than 4342 or 4351 and your heart suit is terrible.

ditto.

[Fluffy]

sorry I knew I had to clarify but forgot to, 4342 is possible, in fact not looking at our hand (club shortness) it is the most likelly shape after 4243 for his bidding.

For us 4351 is also possible, so is 4360, but they are not something you need to care much about (for what its worth partner could have a 23 count 4144 also , but even more unlikelly)

[Free]

The way I play XYZ:
1♦-1♥-1♠-3♦ shows INV 5+♥ & 5+♦
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-3♦ shows INV 4♥ & 5+♦
1♦-1♥-1♠-2NT-3♣-3♦ shows GF 5+♥ & 5+♦ (2NT puppet to 3♣)

[Fluffy]

I play 2NT as balanced game try with 4 clubs.

there were 11 tricks in hearts, and 12 in diamonds (13 when a club wasn't led) when everything was working.