[straube]

I know much of our goal is interfering with a constructive auction once the opponents have opened. Still, I'm wondering why it wouldn't make sense to use a Precision structure after a natural club. The safety issue?

P-other or 6 clubs
Dbl-15+
1D-10-14, 2+ diamonds
1H-8-14, 5+ hearts
1S-8-14, 5+ spades
1N-15-17
2C-Michaels (5/4 or 4/5)
.....2D-asks better major
2D-10-14, 3-suited, short diamonds
2M-weak
2N-minors

It seems like 1D ought to have a more constructive use anyhow and we need to be able to get in the bidding with such shapes as 4135 and 2425 etc.

The problem with double as takeout is that partner always has to bid (and therefore his bids mean less) whereas with a Precision 1D overcall, partner can pass if he wants or introduce a 4-cd major if he has one.

I'm sure someone has played something like this before. Why doesn't it work?

[bluecalm]

Surprisingly I like the idea
I would change meaning of:
1♦ to be normal takeout double (10)11-14hcp
2♣ natural, 6+ like 2C opener (this one is very important imo)
1NT as both majors 5+-4+ 8-14
dbl 15+

I have a feeling that one can collect a lot of penalties against vul 1C openers using this.

[awm]

I've tried something like this; it is not totally obvious that it "doesn't work."

There are however two main issues that arise. First, the "precision 1♦" opening is not very good in competition. When the opponents have actually opened the bidding, your chances of getting a competitive sequence are much increased. So the potential down sides to a "precision 1♦" are raised. Second, the "precision 1♣" opening is not so great in competition either, with its biggest wins coming when you have a game or slam auction. The fact that RHO opened decreases the chances of your even having 15+ points unbalanced, and when you do have it partner's odds of having a game force opposite have obviously decreased. So you are setting yourself up for a lot more nasty competitive auctions and a lot fewer of the good uncontested GF auctions. The "precision 2♦" over a natural 1♣ seems kind of ridiculous too (why are you even bidding if clubs is your longest suit; why are you safe at the two-level on such a hand; isn't it more common to have a WJO in diamonds anyway?)

[straube]

I see a lot of downsides, too. What's driving this is that I've realized just how difficult it is to accommodate every sort of hand pattern that one has. And here the opponents have taken up hardly any room and haven't shown much of their pattern. What if things were tweaked? What if it were only played NV or if 1D promised 3+ diamonds? That sort of thing.

[dake50]

Overcall Structure (lookup) especially verses 1C and 1D.

[Free]

Why don't you use 2♣ natural? Haven't your opps ever opened 1♣ on a doubleton or 3 card suit?

The main advantage is that you can bid out every hand without the need of learning a complete new structure (one important thing though: 1♣-Dbl-RDbl gives you 1 step less than after our strong opening 1♣-Dbl). However, do you really want to overcall 1♦ with 11-13 or 12-14 balanced?

The 1♦ opening can be annoying for opps and/or us, but the overcall will make things even worse for us imo. You also lose a lot of preemptive possibilities, and most takeout doubles will now just bid 1♦ while partner won't know what to do if LHO raises to 2♣.
I also don't see much use in the 2♦ overcall. It's great when you open it, but probably not when overcalling. It might be more useful to play it as 3-suited short ♣, but then we're modifying the scheme again.

Powerdoubles aren't that great imo. They do the job most of the time (if you have a decent response scheme), but if you're planning on responding like after a strong 1♣ (for example 1♦ neg, rest GF) you're going to lots of trouble. Even when playing 1♥ as semipositive can make life hard on you. Your opps will already have bid twice, they'll probably know their fit and how high they can go.

I actually prefer the following simple scheme over 1m openings:
Dbl = takeout (or very very very strong)
1X = natural
1NT = natural
2♣ = natural
2♦ = Michaels
This lets me bid ♣ natural over a 1♣ opening (which is short much more often than a 1♦ opening), allows me to keep the michaels cuebid, and it's simple.

[straube]

 Free, on 2011-May-10, 02:26, said:

Why don't you use 2♣ natural? Haven't your opps ever opened 1♣ on a doubleton or 3 card suit?

The main advantage is that you can bid out every hand without the need of learning a complete new structure (one important thing though: 1♣-Dbl-RDbl gives you 1 step less than after our strong opening 1♣-Dbl). However, do you really want to overcall 1♦ with 11-13 or 12-14 balanced?

The 1♦ opening can be annoying for opps and/or us, but the overcall will make things even worse for us imo. You also lose a lot of preemptive possibilities, and most takeout doubles will now just bid 1♦ while partner won't know what to do if LHO raises to 2♣.
I also don't see much use in the 2♦ overcall. It's great when you open it, but probably not when overcalling. It might be more useful to play it as 3-suited short ♣, but then we're modifying the scheme again.

Powerdoubles aren't that great imo. They do the job most of the time (if you have a decent response scheme), but if you're planning on responding like after a strong 1♣ (for example 1♦ neg, rest GF) you're going to lots of trouble. Even when playing 1♥ as semipositive can make life hard on you. Your opps will already have bid twice, they'll probably know their fit and how high they can go.

I actually prefer the following simple scheme over 1m openings:
Dbl = takeout (or very very very strong)
1X = natural
1NT = natural
2♣ = natural
2♦ = Michaels
This lets me bid ♣ natural over a 1♣ opening (which is short much more often than a 1♦ opening), allows me to keep the michaels cuebid, and it's simple.

The idea probably isn't practical, but it's so annoying to pass with 2443, 4243, 4144, 1444, 4135, 1435 types of shapes.

What's the minimum suit quality you'd suggest for a natural 2C overcall? In simulations, I'm rarely bidding with 5-cd suits and that means the frequency is much lower. Occasionally, I've seen that it's very important to be able to show clubs immediately, but then I compare it to Michaels and how much more frequent that use is. Plus 1C (2D) doesn't allow for advancer to ask which major is longer and I want to use Michaels for 5/4, 4/5 as well as 5/5.

[JLOGIC]

Passing is ok sometimes!

[mycroft]

Having played against this, it's fun when they double to show 16+. We get all the advantages of an unexplained hand, plus we're already one bid ahead in the competition, plus it's more likely to be a partscore hand than when they open and we're two bids to zero in the partscore battle (on the other hand, that's a two-edged sword; if they're less likely to have game, they're more likely to correctly double the partscore).

Limiting it to the kinds of hands that Power Double would work, but what do you do with the other big hands?

[straube]

After natural 1C

dbl-11-14 with 3+ clubs, would have opened 1C, handles awkward shapes
.....transfers?
1D-15+
.....1H-semipositive
..........1S-GF relays
.....1S-negative
.....other-GF relaying pattern
1M-8-14
1N-majors
.....2C-asks longer major
.....2D-to play
2C-11-14 club takeout
2D-11-14, natural

[straube]

This is what Quantumcat wrote on another thread...

"This is what I play:

(1♣) 1NT = takeout of clubs
(1♣) X = takeout of diamonds (can be passed when responder has clubs)
(1♣) 2♣ = natural
(1♣) 1♦ = strong (any shape)
(1♣) 2♦ = constructive
(1♦) 2♦ = natural
(1♦/1♥/1♠) 1NT = takeout
(1♦/1♥/1♠) X = strong (any shape)


(1 Something) 1NT (X) XX = 4 cards in the highest suit (usually spades, but hearts if the "something" was 1♠)
(1 Something) 1NT (X) Pass = no five card suit, not 4 cards in highest suit
(1 Something) 1NT (X) Pass (Pass) XX = start bidding 4-card suits up the line
(1 Something) 1NT (X) Pass (Pass) 2 Something Else = 5 card suit

"Strong" means 16+ HCP any shape, but with a takeout shape prefer to make a takeout.
We play rubensohl after a double is interfered with.

If the strong double or 1♦ does not get interfered with, 2♣ is artificial gameforce, about 8+ HCP, 1NT = 5-7 with stopper, jump in diamonds, hearts or spades = 5-7, 2NT = 5-7 with clubs, non-jump suit 0-7 might only have 3 cards."

[straube]

Thinking I like Quantumcat's scheme better, but I think I'd prefer Michaels to natural club clubs

dbl-3+ C/H/S, limited
1D-strong
.....1H-semipositive
.....1S-negative
.....other-GF
1M-8-14
1N-takeout of clubs
2C-majors
2D-11-14 diamonds

[akhare]

 straube, on 2011-May-10, 14:44, said:

Thinking I like Quantumcat's scheme better, but I think I'd prefer Michaels to natural club clubs

dbl-3+ C/H/S, limited
1D-strong
.....1H-semipositive
.....1S-negative
.....other-GF
1M-8-14
1N-takeout of clubs
2C-majors
2D-11-14 diamonds

Why not flip 1♦ / X? You give up the ability to play in 1♣X, but gain a lot more in return.

X: Strong
....1D: Negative
1D: Takeout of diamonds
1M 8-14
1N Takeout of clubs
2C: Majors
2D: 10-14

[awm]

Or perhaps...

X = 15+ any
1♦ = takeout of either minor, promising 8-14 hcp and 3-4 in each major suit
--> major suit responses as to normal takeout double, but really bad balanced hands bid 1M on three
--> pass = weak with a bunch of diamonds
--> 2♦ = ask major suit preference, generally 4-4 in majors or GF with one 4M
--> 1NT = balanced w/o a 4M, moderate values
--> 2♣ = weak with a bunch of clubs
1M = normal overcall
1NT = both majors at least 5/4; here a 2♣ advance asks longer/better major
2m = natural and intermediate; in these auctions bidding the other minor acts as a cuebid

I guess my points are that I think 1NT "for takeout" is a bad method (wrong-siding notrump contracts, getting you in trouble when 2X is too high). I also don't see why you need two different "for takeout" calls when the vast majority of times partner is going to advance either of these his four-card major suit. Having only one "for takeout" call frees up a bunch of other calls.

[straube]

 awm, on 2011-May-11, 14:44, said:

Or perhaps...

X = 15+ any
1♦ = takeout of either minor, promising 8-14 hcp and 3-4 in each major suit
--> major suit responses as to normal takeout double, but really bad balanced hands bid 1M on three
--> pass = weak with a bunch of diamonds
--> 2♦ = ask major suit preference, generally 4-4 in majors or GF with one 4M
--> 1NT = balanced w/o a 4M, moderate values
--> 2♣ = weak with a bunch of clubs
1M = normal overcall
1NT = both majors at least 5/4; here a 2♣ advance asks longer/better major
2m = natural and intermediate; in these auctions bidding the other minor acts as a cuebid

I guess my points are that I think 1NT "for takeout" is a bad method (wrong-siding notrump contracts, getting you in trouble when 2X is too high). I also don't see why you need two different "for takeout" calls when the vast majority of times partner is going to advance either of these his four-card major suit. Having only one "for takeout" call frees up a bunch of other calls.

I think I like this, but could you see 1D promising only 2+ in each major? It would usually show 3+, but I'm wondering how to handle such shapes as 2425, 4225, 2452 and 2542. one advantage in having 1D be limited is that it lets overcaller take another bid when advancer doesn't "hit" the right major.

[akhare]

 straube, on 2011-May-11, 16:01, said:

I think I like this, but could you see 1D promising only 2+ in each major? It would usually show 3+, but I'm wondering how to handle such shapes as 2425, 4225, 2452 and 2542. one advantage in having 1D be limited is that it lets overcaller take another bid when advancer doesn't "hit" the right major.

The answer is to that question is the same as "Would you make a limited takeout X that promised only 2+ the majors?"

In other words, some of those (5422) hands will Pass. Some will overcall 1M on the 4 card suit and others will bid 2♦.

[straube]

 akhare, on 2011-May-11, 17:07, said:

The answer is to that question is the same as "Would you make a limited takeout X that promised only 2+ the majors?"

In other words, some of those (5422) hands will Pass. Some will overcall 1M on the 4 card suit and others will bid 2♦.

What I'm getting at is that in standard the auction 1C X P 1H P 1S shows a big hand and 1C 1D P 1H P 1S shows 4S and 5 diamonds.

What would this 1C 1D P 1H P 1S sequence mean, if anything? If it means nothing, that's likely a problem. The very nature of having an overcall be limited like this means that it is more free to show distribution thereafter.

[akhare]

 straube, on 2011-May-11, 17:48, said:

What I'm getting at is that in standard the auction 1C X P 1H P 1S shows a big hand and 1C 1D P 1H P 1S shows 4S and 5 diamonds.

What would this 1C 1D P 1H P 1S sequence mean, if anything? If it means nothing, that's likely a problem. The very nature of having an overcall be limited like this means that it is more free to show distribution thereafter.

Anything will work in an uncontested auction.

What really matters is:

(1C) - 1D - (3C)

How comfortable will responder be introducing even a 5 card major here if 1D shows only 2+ in the majors?

This is precisely the same logic that you would use to avoid an extreme off shape X that showed only 2-2 in the majors.

[straube]

 akhare, on 2011-May-11, 18:54, said:

Anything will work in an uncontested auction.

What really matters is:

(1C) - 1D - (3C)

How comfortable will responder be introducing even a 5 card major here if 1D shows only 2+ in the majors?

This is precisely the same logic that you would use to avoid an extreme off shape X that showed only 2-2 in the majors.

I agree that this possibility exists (blasting to 3C). The opponents have already invested in the auction. They deserve to win the battle most often.

I would guess that most of the time responder will be trying to introduce a major rather than raise clubs. Opener doesn't have a 5-cd major and we presumably don't have a 5-cd major (having overcalled 1D). So odds are good that responder and advancer both have 4+ card majors.

How is it best to find our fits? Lets say that it was our open. Would we use a system like...

1C-16+
1D-3+/3+ in the majors
1H-5 hearts
1S-5 spades
1N-5/4 majors
2C-6 clubs
2D-5 diamonds
P-everything else including various opening hands?

I don't think we would.

The problem is it sometimes takes rounds of bidding to show patterns and find fits.

I'm thinking we could pretty much play our opening structure. Move down the range for major suit overcalls to 8. Not even sure Michaels is necessary. After a 1H overcall why can't advancer show a 4-cd spade suit if he has one? We'd really have to look at the likelihood of NT ranges and how much room to devote to these hands. Those Michaels hands do come up a lot so sacrificing 1N for them could be worthwhile.

What are the opponents to do? Use double of our nebulous diamond to start a force? Could be right. Probably much better to use it as a transfer to hearts. Will responder pass with diamonds and values waiting for a back-in double? Perhaps. Perhaps we can run, too.

Now we have a complete structure and partner knows that when we pass we don't have a good hand.

[straube]

We're pretty much thinking of trying system on...

dbl-15/16+
1D-nebulous, 10-15 (11-13 bal)
1H-8-14
1S-8-14
1N-14-16 (no stopper required)
2C-6 clubs, not 4 hearts
2D-6 diamonds, no major
2M-weak
2N-4H/6C 10-15

and we're thinking

(1C) dbl P 1D is 0-7 and 1H+ starts GF relays

The alternative to that would be our usual structure

1D-GF various
1H-all semipositives
1S-DN
1N+ GF various

but responder is so weak so often and it would be nice to let opener rebid 1M naturally.

Thoughts? Especially about the ranges. Is 14-16 NT playable for example?