[swanway]

English Bridge Union

Can you please help us with the following problem. We are not sure we have got it right.

We believe that if you double a weak 1NT (12 to 14pts) you must have 15+ points. However you can have an agreement to double with less than 15 points provided it is recorded on your System Card or alerted if System Cards are not in use. Is it correct to quote 4H2 of the Orange Book to cover this problem
'The practice of doubling an opening 1NT for penalties (especially in the direct seat) on balanced hands which have fewer than 15HCP must be shown on the convention card'.

What is the penalty if partners flout this rule and continue not to alert?

[mgoetze]

swanway, on 2011-August-27, 13:29, said:

What is the penalty if partners flout this rule and continue not to alert?

Uhm... why do you ask?

[RMB1]

There are not usually procedural penalties for failure to alert. Failure to alert is dealt with as misinformation, and if the non-offending side are damaged there can be an adjusted score.

However, if the offenders are doubling on less than 15 but claiming their agreement is that double shows 15+ then it should be pointed out to them their actual (implicit) agreement appears to be different from their stated (explicit) agreement and they should change their explanation (and should alert).

If their agreement is that they double routinely on less than 15, and they have been told they should alert, and they repeatedly do not, then procedural penalties should be issued each time they do not alert: the penalties increasing each time.

[blackshoe]

swanway, on 2011-August-27, 13:29, said:

English Bridge Union

Can you please help us with the following problem. We are not sure we have got it right.

We believe that if you double a weak 1NT (12 to 14pts) you must have 15+ points. However you can have an agreement to double with less than 15 points provided it is recorded on your System Card or alerted if System Cards are not in use. Is it correct to quote 4H2 of the Orange Book to cover this problem
'The practice of doubling an opening 1NT for penalties (especially in the direct seat) on balanced hands which have fewer than 15HCP must be shown on the convention card'.

What is the penalty if partners flout this rule and continue not to alert?

"Must" have 15+ points? Nonsense. "Top of opponents' range (so 14+)" or "Top of the range or a long running suit" are certainly legitimate agreements. Even if the partnership understanding is "15+", players are permitted to deviate from it. Of course, once such deviations become frequent enough that partner begins to expect them, there is an implicit partnership understanding which must be disclosed ("15+ or …"). See OB 3.

"Or alerted if system cards are not in use" shows a misunderstanding of the regulations. First, system cards are required (OB 4A1). Second, the requirement to alert or announce is independent of what's on the system card. As for this double,

Quote

OB 5G4a: A penalty double of an opening natural 1NT which may have less than the normally accepted point-count (ie 15 HCP or compensating distribution). Note that this is not a real penalty double.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that last sentence, or that it should be in an alerting regulation, but no matter — it's the requirement to alert that counts. Note, however, the phrase "compensating distribution" (the emphasis is mine).

If your opponents do not alert as required, or do not have system cards, or deviate from their stated agreement and you expect you may have been damaged by that deviation or failure to alert, call the director. If you're playing in a club that routinely ignores the requirement for system cards, then calling the TD for that probably isn't going to help. You would need to change the culture in the club, which is not an easy endeavor.

If you were damaged by MI (failure to alert or to properly disclose their partnership understanding) the TD may adjust the score. In theory he could issue procedural penalties, but that would be rare. As for the lack of system cards, there are various things the TD can do (see OB 4) but if it's a club that routinely ignores the requirement he probably won't do any of those things.

I would not be quoting regulations (or any other rules) at opponents. If you have a problem, call the TD. If the opponents are quoting rules at you, you do have a problem, so call the TD.

I see Robin posted while I was composing. We agree; his is shorter.

This post has been edited by blackshoe: 2011-August-27, 19:41
Reason for edit: Crossposted

[Bbradley62]

swanway, on 2011-August-27, 13:29, said:

'The practice of doubling an opening 1NT for penalties (especially in the direct seat) on balanced hands which have fewer than 15HCP must be shown on the convention card'.

Partner and I play that a double of opps' opening 1NT shows the same range (or +1) as the opening 1NT bidder. I've always thought of this as being for takeout, not for penalties. As with other takeout doubles, partner can convert when she has the appropriate hand.

[blackshoe]

Interesting, but unorthodox, view.

[campboy]

blackshoe, on 2011-August-27, 17:21, said:

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that last sentence, or that it should be in an alerting regulation, but no matter — it's the requirement to alert that counts.

That sentence is presumably there because at the time the regulation was written doubles with unexpected meanings were not necessarily alertable. The only way to make this double alertable without a fundamental change to the regulations was to say that it wasn't a penalty double.

[blackshoe]

I don't like "Humpty Dumpty" rules.

[bluejak]

It is not a penalty double within the general understanding. It is more important to keep players informed than to worry about some people's views of semantics or vocabulary which may not be majority views anyway.