[MickyB]

South deals, bid these hands playing 2/1.

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[dboxley]

MickyB, on 2011-September-28, 17:59, said:

South deals, bid these hands playing 2/1.

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1♠ - 2♦
2♠ - 3♥
3NT - P

Not elegant and both hands are better than min but the spade misfit and lack of intermediates make both partners slow down. I would like to find a sequence, that is not contrived, to get to 6D or 6H but I can't.

[aguahombre]

It seems to not matter on this hand, whether North or South is declarer. You need 3-3 diamonds or the spade King onside --better than even money, and I can live with that.

If North jumps to 3NT on the second round to show his extra strength, the pair will get to slam. (Jumps to 3NT in game-forcing auctions are not fast-arrival in the style of many pairs).

If the auction of dboxley happens, then when South bids 3N North can bid four as a quant; and they still get to slam.

[han]

To me a jump to 3NT shows a balanced hand.

I would rebid 2NT with the north hand, I play that 3H promises 6 diamonds. South would bid 3S and north 3NT.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2011-September-29, 01:26, said:

To me a jump to 3NT shows a balanced hand.

I would rebid 2NT with the north hand, I play that 3H promises 6 diamonds. South would bid 3S and north 3NT.

It would show a balanced hand in most styles, where 2S didn't guarantee 6 of them...very true.

The second paragraph seems a reasonable "start" with the given hand; followed with 4NT by south. We both seem to agree against 3H, unless we have 6 diamonds...since it is so unlikely to be needed to find a heart fit.

[whereagles]

Playing my pet system I would probably end up in 6NT:

1S 2D
2NT 4NT
6NT

2NT = 15-17, 5332 or 6322 with broken suit.

I can't really tell how I'd bid in standard 2/1 because everybody plays it different.

[Zelandakh]

I was wondering if someone would open the door on pet systems . Mine is likely also destined for 6NT:

1S = 10-17, 5+ spades
... - 1N = INV+ relay
2S = max, 6+ spades, 1-suited, GF
... - 2N = relay
3C = 3 hearts
... - 3D = relay
3N = 6322
... - 4N = natural invite
6C = choice of slam
... - 6N

[fromageGB]

I would miss the slam, too. My south rebid is jump to 3♠, specifically 15/16 and 6 spades "balanced" (17+ keeps low initially). With north, I would not be tempted, and would just bid 3NT.

[gnasher]

Are you all being honest, or have you just not noticed how much better six of a red suit is?

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2011-September-29, 13:06, said:

Are you all being honest, or have you just not noticed how much better six of a red suit is?

I noticed, and an early post mentioned it. But can't imagine being able to do it at the table.

[whereagles]

I'm being honest. No way I would ever find out that 6D/H is better.

[gnasher]

In standard 2/1, one of the problems is actually establishing that you have extra values. Neither player has a clearcut move beyond game.

If you do get past that hurdle, it might be possible to get to the best spot. Suppose that you get to a point where South has shown six spades and North has shown the red suits, then North invites in notrumps. Now South has two reasons for thinking that diamonds might play better - the weak spade suit and the possibility of a club ruff. For example, if it started

1♠-2♦
2♠-3♥ (with 2♠ showing six)
3NT-4NT

If South had three diamonds he could try 6♦, so he could bid 5NT to make a mild offer of diamonds as trumps, without overstating his support. North, looking at two small clubs, might then accept diamonds, or he might try 6♣ as his own choice-of-slams call.

[rduran1216]

why dont I rebid 3NT over 2D to protect Kx and AJx, and show this kind of hand. Especially if u systemically open 15-16HCP hands 1NT with 5 spades, I guess 3NT here shows 15-17 with a 6322ish hand.

1S 2D
3NT 4NT
6NT

[MickyB]

Not quite sure where I'd get to with my methods.

1S:2D
2N:3H
3N:4N
6H looks possible - with 2N showing a single-suiter that is worth a GF opposite the weak type for 2D [4+D, exactly 2S, 9-10]

But yes, it's a tricky auction for standard methods. The hand came up in partnership bidding and the auction was 1S:2D, 2N:3N, P. If neither hand jumps to 3N to show extras I don't think you get there.

[aguahombre]

The jump to 3NT after 1M-2m takes up a lot of useful space which 2/1 is supposed to be conserving. The suggestion to use this jump to show a 6-card major means we could have to find a different way to handle the 18-19 hands (15-17 already covered via 1NT)...which IMO are good hands for this rebid.

There should be a place in one's structure for the 3N jump rebid; but it should be very narrowly specific as to size and shape, putting responder in control of any further proceedings. Hands with 6-baggers tend to be more suitable for a suit-contract; and suit oriented hands tend to find extra bidding room more useful.

[rduran1216]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-29, 16:39, said:

The jump to 3NT after 1M-2m takes up a lot of useful space which 2/1 is supposed to be conserving. The suggestion to use this jump to show a 6-card major means we could have to find a different way to handle the 18-19 hands (15-17 already covered via 1NT)...which IMO are good hands for this rebid.

There should be a place in one's structure for the 3N jump rebid; but it should be very narrowly specific as to size and shape, putting responder in control of any further proceedings. Hands with 6-baggers tend to be more suitable for a suit-contract; and suit oriented hands tend to find extra bidding room more useful.

well with 18-19 why not 1S 2m 2NT .... partner bids 3NT and now bid 4NT to show this. To me the 2NT rebid is either 12-14 or 18-19, which is why I say we can free up 3NT for this 6322 idea. Especially since its in my style to pattern rather than show extras. if I take up space I'm being specific about my shape.

[Zelandakh]

gnasher, on 2011-September-29, 13:06, said:

Are you all being honest, or have you just not noticed how much better six of a red suit is?

I am perhaps being over-honest! Since Opener has already shown exact shape in my auction they are free to use the additional space over 4NT to show something. Since this is currently defined as "natural" it has to be honour concentrations and it is potentially possible to reach 6red. However, I did not want to get into that can of worms and in any case we might end up using the space here to show controls instead when the decision finally gets made.

[whereagles]

gnasher, on 2011-September-29, 15:31, said:

In standard 2/1, one of the problems is actually establishing that you have extra values. Neither player has a clearcut move beyond game.

That's because people tend to put distribution first far too often. You have to blend distribution with hcp otherwise you end up having guess too much. Use a catch-all for min hands, for instance the 2M or 2NT rebids.

[fromageGB]

rduran1216, on 2011-September-29, 17:50, said:

well with 18-19 why not 1S 2m 2NT .... partner bids 3NT and now bid 4NT to show this. To me the 2NT rebid is either 12-14 or 18-19, which is why I say we can free up 3NT for this 6322 idea. Especially since its in my style to pattern rather than show extras. if I take up space I'm being specific about my shape.

This is my approach, too. Reserve bids above 2NT to show specifically mid-range. In my case though this is 15/16, and without the possibility of 17 I don't think partner has enough to go beyond game. Turn south's ♣K into a QJ, or just a Q, and I don't think much of the slam.

[xxhong]

1S 2D
2N(6+S, extra value, good 14+) 3H(natural)
3N 4N(inv)
5H(accept, 3 H) 5N(pick a slam)
6H(HJ is important)

MickyB, on 2011-September-28, 17:59, said:

South deals, bid these hands playing 2/1.

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