[Phil]

Inquiry writes in another thread:

Quote

"I have switched to the signal on first suit declarer plays as substitute count in the "key suit". Often this will be the long suit in dummy if dummy is short of entries, other times it is in the suit partner lead (for cash out situation).

During a Los Angeles regional a few years back, I saw with this position (matchpoints) (sorry, can't quite get the hand diagram right - you are South and dummy is on your right):

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The bidding is a little strange, but that isn't the point. I probably posted something similar to this, but I could not find it. It would have been circa 2008, and my memory is a little foggy about the hand TBH.

Partner leads the ♥9 won by dummy's Ace. Declarer plays a spade to the Ace, tries the ♠K (partner signals with an encouraging diamond) and plays a club. As partner processes this rapidly, your brain screams ACE!!!. Partner rising and playing a heart would have led to an easy beat as declarer held AKQJTx JTxx KJ x. OTOH, ducking would be correct if declarer held AKQJTx Qxx Ax Qx.

Instead of relying on clairvoyance, wouldn't it be nice to be able to transmit your club count on the spade trick? In the bar later, Everett Boyer and I discussed this exact concept. I also have heard that Anders Wirgen has published some articles in the BW about a similar concept.

I hope we can develop some places where "Obvious Count" applies. A long suit in dummy and no entries seems to be ripe with possibilities. Where else could it apply?

[inquiry]

i posted about this topic (calling it offsuit signal instead of offsuit count) back on 1/22/2011 (see offsuit signal). Actually, i got the name of the conventional signalling wrong, as I eventually found the article in bridge world where i got the concept (March 1988 Bridge World article entitled "Side-suit signals" and was by Jeffery Sapire). Jeffery even actually responded to my post here in the forum - chastising me for renaming his signal (i had forgotten the name). i have since seen it referred to as "substitute count" (entire chapter four in guide dog part II by Martens) and surrogate count (forget where i saw that term first, but it is mentioned by that term in a 2011 interview of eric rodwell on bridgematters,com).

Cashout and hold-up are the most common places where this signal is needed. I use it primarily for the situation you described and in partner's original lead suit where i think he may need to cash his high card in that suit. Experience shows partner often misses this signal unless you work on just what you are saying here, a set of firm rules where it applies.

[inquiry]

Marten's position on substitute count is the following: "an unnecessary count signal in one suit, shows the number of cards in a second suit" and perhaps unhelpfully at first, "most often the key suit on a deal will not be the result of a specific agreement, but from both defenders understanding the defensive situation." Jeffery gave a list of conditions to apply this signal in his reply to my offsuit signal thread.

He does list four specific cases where he would give substitute count. One is in side suit doubleton in dummy (or higher of two side suit doubletons) and he explains why a doubleton suit in dummy is more suitable than a three card suit.

On your given hand, it seems that the key suit would indeed be clubs as the bridge situation, at least to you is clear, you don't want your partner to duck his club ace from his five card suit. Presumably, your partner will want to know if he has to duck or not as well. This situation would seem to clearly call for side suit count for clubs, and i would give such in trumps. NOTE: attitude already given in hearts, so s/p in trumps not needed so surrogate count would have become the default signal for me even with a different dummy. The only problem would have been which suit to give the count in. Here clubs would be obvious.

[Phil]

I apologize for trying to label this other than 'substitute count'.

I think this method works very well with Obvious Shift, because responder doesn't have the opportunity to give proper count in opener's led suit.

[kenrexford]

Again, as I posted after Inquiry's post, I also have long thought that this was a great idea. I had years ago (probably 15 years ago) written up a mini-book on this idea, covering several situations and providing probably 40 or more hand diagrams to discuss the idea, but I lost the damned thing!

The "Obvious Count" or "Surrogate Count" seems like not that unique an idea, by some way of thinking. Smith Echos are "surrogate attitude" signals, so why not "surrogate count?" For that matter, Lavinthal discards could be viewed as "surrogate suit preference," somewhat. The question is priority of signal, disregarding WHERE the signal is made.

A Smith Echo operates as a priority attitude when attitude for a known critical suit is obviously key. The strain of the carding is not tied to the suit you want to send a message about or to a discard but to following suit. Strain is determined by what is played next. Message is tied to need.

The same thing with count. If Dummy hits and everyone knows that West will need to know how many times to duck clubs, East's first non-functional card should be a count signal in clubs. So, if West leads the Queen of spades, Ace-King on dummy, East has no reason to show attitude in spades, and count in spades is likely immaterial. So, if East plays the deuce, this should be odd in clubs.

Working out details is another thing (and I did something very good IMO as to that working out of details but lost the damned thing to the electronic graveyard of lost files...DAMMIT!!!).

[inquiry]

Phil, on 2011-September-27, 11:43, said:

I apologize for trying to label this other than 'substitute count'.

I think this method works very well with Obvious Shift, because responder doesn't have the opportunity to give proper count in opener's led suit.

Actually, of all the names for this signal, I think your Obvious Count is by far the best. It was Jeffery who took me to task for "changing" it from side suit to offsuit. I think i will start calling it obvious count, although I suspect marten's use of substitute will win the day for the name of this signal.

[han]

Great discussion.

I think that partner should get it right if you play 9-8 of spades as suit preference. I think that suit preference in the trump suit is often useful. What are the rules that people use to determine whether we should give side-suit count or suit preference in the trump suit?

I think I will stick with only 1 signal in the trump suit for now.

[inquiry]

han, on 2011-September-28, 03:29, said:

Great discussion.

I think that partner should get it right if you play 9-8 of spades as suit preference. I think that suit preference in the trump suit is often useful. What are the rules that people use to determine whether we should give side-suit count or suit preference in the trump suit?

I think I will stick with only 1 signal in the trump suit for now.

i will be the first to admit when you first start including obvious count signals, things frequently go wrong. So sticking with what works for you is not a bad idea at all. In fact, it agrees with one more piece of advice from Martens that was unless it the situation is clear to both partner's, then original signal (not obvious count or what he calls substitute count) applies. Thus, unless in the OP both partners would recognize the need for a count signal in clubs, according to the Martens rule, then the trump signal would S/P not obvious count.

i would think with the heart ace knocked out at trick one, both partners would see the need for a club count. So theoretically i would think even the possibility of using the heart suit as a method to give "obvious count" in clubs might come into play. This is where things can get really fuzzy (the so called give partner the signal he needs to know is always problematic in deciding when to give it).

However, here is the general rule I have found to be helpful (so far)....

inquiry in signal one thread said:

I have gotten into using a S/P (similar to smith echo, but not exactly the same as can signal for other suits) on the first suit declarer leads, but with an exception. If I have already signaled encouragement (...). In this case, I have switched to the signal on first suit declarer plays as substitute count in the "key suit". Often this will be the long suit in dummy if dummy is short of entries, other times it is in the suit partner lead (for cash out situation).

On this hand, clearly the key suit will be clubs. So the default here for me after trick one would have been obvious count in whatever suit declarer lead to trick two (trumps or not) assuming of course my low heart at trick one was positive attitude. I will admit there has been a hand or two where i wish my card could have been s/p for a second suit, but the count signal has been very useful. I am not sure this is the best treatment. My way is lazy codified situation that is not given in Marten's methods, so i am not sure if it is a good "general rule" or not.

Since i have now proposed one of my rules for using obvious count signals, let me repost what Jeffery wrote about the off suit signal. His article 22 years ago was less complicated of what we are playing these days and what is described by Martens. Jeffery wrote in his reply to my thread on this subject the following rules for when "side suit signal" (a considerably more limited version of what we are calling obvious count) applies...

fann4, on 2011-January-24, 13:43, said:

I wrote the article - It's interesting that 22 years after I wrote the article 'Side suit signals', discussion appears here. I'm working on some more complex variations of the signal now, but as it was originally postulated, it's not particularly difficult. The key factors are; 1) Dummy has a long dangerous suit with no side entry 2) It is clear to both defenders that if declarer plays this suit early, before a defender has managed to discard once or twice in the suit, then the defender with the Ace is going to have to commit himself before partner plays, THEN, so long as 3) a defender was not simply playing 3rd hand high initially, or 4) it is clearly not a case of attitude required in the led suit, THEN the player without the Ace will give a Side suit signal, using the same count method (standard or upside down, it matters not), and will signal count in the CRITICAL suit with the count card he plays in the played suit.

At least on this hand the obvious count signal i use keeps you from wasting brain energy yelling "play the ace".

[inquiry]

PERHAPS you were too timid, seeing all four hands, it is clear they stole you blind. But this isn't about bidding, but about using OBVIOUS COUNT for best defense.

Opening lead 4th best (or low from three).

Playing an obvious count situation, the suit that is key is clearly clubs. It seems east has two ways to show count in clubs. You are going to score 2♥, you can not stop the ruffing of the third in dummy if partner held Jxx unless he also has the ♠A because you have only one trump to lead. So one option is to "signal" club count in the sequence of heart plays. WIN HEART ACE, then king (high-low) when playing udca and then return a trump. This should show an even number of clubs (not a doubleton heart).

If you win first heart with king (standard type play) and return a trump, declarer might go up with the ace and lead a club immediately. Now partner has to guess the correct play (take club ACE). He probably gets it right. IF declarer ducks the spade to the king, then partner needs to exit a spade where your discard should be count in clubs this time.

This was a bbo hand where everyone playing spades made at least 7 tricks, some more. Only one defender ducked the first club, the others went wrong on opening up the diamond suit for declarer. To be fair, some lead diamond at trick one. After ♥AK, trump switch, to the king, and trump back, north will discard to show diamond something. WHEN south wins the first club, he exits calmly with another heart and the defense waits to wins three diamond tricks (plus 2h, 1S, 1c).

Do you think winning A=K of hearts here is a good use of obvious count. NOTE, it is not a good idea to win the ace and switch to a trump, as partner will not be able to "read" your intention because he will not know about the king of hearts.

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[Phil]

inquiry, on 2011-October-01, 08:13, said:

Do you think winning A=K of hearts here is a good use of obvious count. NOTE, it is not a good idea to win the ace and switch to a trump, as partner will not be able to "read" your intention because he will not know about the king of hearts.

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Absolutely. Normally the order we would play the hearts would be SP but that is of little use here.