[Onedown]

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These hands are the reason I play this game and sometimes regret it!!

First of all, we play Puppet over 1NT as game force and 2 clubs as non-forcing, BUT we also play g/f Smolen. I incorporated Puppet 3 years ago over 1NT and it has paid off big time. We also play 4 suit transfers, using 3 ♦ as game force with both minors and 3♥ and 3♠ as fragment bids. Using Puppet we lose 3♣, as weak in both minors, so not such a big loss.

I have 2 choices here, bid 2 clubs followed by 3 ♠ unless partner bids a major, or Puppet on the off chance partner has his own 5 card major. And for those nay sayers who refuse to open 1NT with a 5 card major, that discussion is for another day!
I have already got it into my head that slam is possible, but SO many things to know about !!!

As the auction goes, partner makes my decision a bit easier by bidding 3♦ over the X of 3♣, showing 1 or both majors, but what now? I need to know what major, and his ♦ and ♠ holdings.

I can bid 4 ♣ which is slam invitational, showing both majors, or many other choices. I also know a ♣ lead is imminent. I finally whimp out and bid 4♦ (only a game force), which partner responds 4 ♠ and all pass.

How many of you take the leap of faith here? and how?

Note: Once I review the hand now I should have put more thought into it .

Partner did not XX 3 ♣, which may place his values elsewhere, and partner showing 4 ♠, I should have reconsidered and bid on (resulting?) as 6 ♠ makes, banging down Ace ♠) grabs stiff K on your right)!
My choices if I had decided to continue and in this order, are 1. 5 ♣ 2. 5 ♠ asking spade quality. But both bids only serve for 1/2 info, 5 ♣ may fetch 5 ♦, but I STILL don't know ♠ quality , and 5 ♠ I don't know about ♦s

I have given 7 choices, and not in any particular order. Rank you choice(s) from 10 down.

[Flameous]

I like 5C now. It's not to fetch 5D cuebid, it's to complete the description of your hand.
You already showed both majors without slam force, so now moving must be club void.
I'm not sure partner will be accepting with the CK but at least that's the best try now.

Problem is that we don't need partner to have anything near max. Here he has CK wasted and slam is still ok.

[whereagles]

So you have a slam-try with 55 majors? Easy: transfer to spades and follow up with 3H and 4H over pard's 3NT. Really a no brainer

In this particular hand you'd hear 3S over 3H and then it should be simple.

[Onedown]

Flameous, on 2011-November-26, 10:18, said:

I like 5C now. It's not to fetch 5D cuebid, it's to complete the description of your hand.
You already showed both majors without slam force, so now moving must be club void.
I'm not sure partner will be accepting with the CK but at least that's the best try now.

Problem is that we don't need partner to have anything near max. Here he has CK wasted and slam is still ok.

Mud on face when they cash the AK of ♦

[Onedown]

whereagles, on 2011-November-26, 10:19, said:

So you have a slam-try with 55 majors? Easy: transfer to spades and follow up with 3H and 4H over pard's 3NT. Really a no brainer

In this particular hand you'd hear 3S over 3H and then it should be simple.

Transfer is an interesting choice (not mine) and offers some investigative room., but again, I only have an 11 HCP hand? We could be off in HCP AAK? Also a transfer is grabbing 2 ♠ and with an over zealous North perhaps 3 ♠. Then what? There is no 3NT bid here.

[manudude03]

I'd bid 5C, then 5H over 5D, that should emphasise the need for good trumps. It is close to impossible (but not quite) to be off ♦AK after 3C is doubled anyway.

[kenrexford]

This is such a bizarre sequence.

If you want something intelligent to do, maybe try using 1NT-P-3♦ as 5-5 majors, GF. Opener then agrees spades (3♠), and you get the space available for:

3NT = step 1 = slammish with stiff club
4♣ = step 2 = slammish with stiff diamond
4♦ = step 3 = slammish with void club
4♥ = step 4 = slammish with void diamond
4♠ = non-slammish

(BTW, Opener can also super-accept with 4♣ or 4♦, which would have whatever specific agreed holding you like, and he can also "super-reject" with 4♥ or 4♠ (fit, but be careful thinking slam, pard).

On the actual hand:

1NT-3♦
3♠-4♦

Pard should now be able to bid this slam easily.

I know that you use 3♦ for both minors, slammish. But, the four-suit transfers concept seems ill-advised. Try instead 2♠ as one or both minors, for starters. Opener bids 2NT with diamond preference, 3♣ with club preference. You then can pass or bid 3♣ with a weak hand and one or both clubs, bid 3♦ with one or both diamonds, or bid a SLOW 3M as the fragment call (thereby through the slow route establishing the agreement minor in the event that a minor strain ends up the focus, which is a good thing). 1NT-3M, then, is immediate 5-5 minors, indicating stiff (which allows discussion below 3NT).

[Onedown]

kenrexford, on 2011-November-26, 10:47, said:

This is such a bizarre sequence.

If you want something intelligent to do, maybe try using 1NT-P-3♦ as 5-5 majors, GF. Opener then agrees spades (3♠), and you get the space available for:

3NT = step 1 = slammish with stiff club
4♣ = step 2 = slammish with stiff diamond
4♦ = step 3 = slammish with void club
4♥ = step 4 = slammish with void diamond
4♠ = non-slammish

(BTW, Opener can also super-accept with 4♣ or 4♦, which would have whatever specific agreed holding you like, and he can also "super-reject" with 4♥ or 4♠ (fit, but be careful thinking slam, pard).

On the actual hand:

1NT-3♦
3♠-4♦

Pard should now be able to bid this slam easily.

I know that you use 3♦ for both minors, slammish. But, the four-suit transfers concept seems ill-advised. Try instead 2♠ as one or both minors, for starters. Opener bids 2NT with diamond preference, 3♣ with club preference. You then can pass or bid 3♣ with a weak hand and one or both clubs, bid 3♦ with one or both diamonds, or bid a SLOW 3M as the fragment call (thereby through the slow route establishing the agreement minor in the event that a minor strain ends up the focus, which is a good thing). 1NT-3M, then, is immediate 5-5 minors, indicating stiff (which allows discussion below 3NT).

Ken, as a bridge theorist, many bids or gadgets would be ill-advised in your opinion?

The way I play and use 4 suit transfers is by choice of all THE OTHER CHOICES IN BRIDGELAND!

And on this particular hand it was bizarre as I know realize I had a brain fart not considering xferring to ♠'s in the beginning and the only thing I did that was ill-advised was making the post.

[kenrexford]

Onedown, on 2011-November-26, 10:57, said:

Ken, as a bridge theorist, many bids or gadgets would be ill-advised in your opinion?

The way I play and use 4 suit transfers is by choice of all THE OTHER CHOICES IN BRIDGELAND!

And on this particular hand it was bizarre as I know realize I had a brain fart not considering xferring to ♠'s in the beginning and the only thing I did that was ill-advised was making the post.

I like gadgets. I love Puppet 3♣. I just don't bid Puppet 3♣ with 5-5 majors after a 1NT opening. (I do after a 2NT opening, sometimes.)

If you are going to use Puppet, though, with 5-5, which is not completely insane, a suggestion.

The start was 1NT-3♣, with a double. Partner bid 3♦, showing one or both majors. Great! Rather than the silly 4♣ or 4♦ calls for 4-4, when you are slammish, try showing spades first and giving up on the lead issue.

1NT-P-3♣-(X)
3♦-P-3♥

If partner has spades and therefore bids 3♠, this is great news! You can then cuebid or use shortness bids. Maybe:

3NT = serious
4♣ = stiff or void in clubs (4♦ asks which)
4♦ = stiff
4♥ = void in diamonds
4♠ = lead, please

If partner does not have spades and bids 3NT for that reason, you then incorporate the meaning that 4♣ is a heart slam move with short clubs, 4♦ with short diamonds, or 4♥ quantitative balanced. (If you have a hand with 4-4-4-1 or 4-4-1-4, start with Stayman.)

Partner won't know that you have 5-5, but so what? If you are bidding with 5-5 through Puppet, he doesn't know anyway.

[aguahombre]

On my planet, 2C/1NT if G.F. values has one or two FOUR-card majors (4-2, 4-4, 4-5, etc.; 5-5 and 4-3 are out. 3C/1NT is puppet enroute to 3NT with at least one 3-card major (3-3, 4-3, 3-2, etc.).

It seems using 3C with this hand created a situation where only responder knew what was going on, but he wanted opener to participate anyway. Starting with 3C puppet on this hand wouldn't occur to us.

This nice slam could be reached via the old fashioned transfer to spades followed by 3H natural and forcing. We, too are 2-suit transfer people, with a direct 3D showing 5-5 majors and invite values.

[kenrexford]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-26, 11:30, said:

On my planet, 2C/1NT if G.F. values has one or two FOUR-card majors (4-2, 4-4, 4-5, etc.; 5-5 and 4-3 are out. 3C/1NT is puppet enroute to 3NT with at least one 3-card major (3-3, 4-3, 3-2, etc.).

It seems using 3C with this hand created a situation where only responder knew what was going on, but he wanted opener to participate anyway. Starting with 3C puppet on this hand wouldn't occur to us.

This nice slam could be reached via the old fashioned transfer to spades followed by 3H natural and forcing. We, too are 2-suit transfer people, with a direct 3D showing 5-5 majors and invite values.

Curious -- why 2♥...3♥ with GF but 3♦ with invitational?

I mean, if a super-accept happens over 2♥, you are better placed with slam interest, but you seem worse off if partner cannot super-accept and thus must make a choice higher. I see that right-siding on invitationals might be a reason, but this still seems backwards to me. I'm willing to learn, though.

[phil_20686]

If you play smolen then the whole world plays

1h-2h
2s-3H as 5-5GF, opener to cue if slam suitable and accepting hearts.

I actual prefer to use 1n-2d-2h-2s as the GF/slammish option, as it gives a bit more room, and the sequence above is for invitational hands. The down side is that i cannot play 2s with 5-5 inv opposite 1N, the upside is i get more room to investigate slam.

[aguahombre]

kenrexford, on 2011-November-26, 11:57, said:

Curious -- why 2♥...3♥ with GF but 3♦ with invitational?

I mean, if a super-accept happens over 2♥, you are better placed with slam interest, but you seem worse off if partner cannot super-accept and thus must make a choice higher. I see that right-siding on invitationals might be a reason, but this still seems backwards to me. I'm willing to learn, though.

In addition to right-siding with invites, and being interested in case of a super-accept of spades, the 2H/3H route also provides for super-accept of hearts via 4m. Another reason is that the treatment is old and so are we, so it fits.

[kenrexford]

Well, for what it's worth, there is a lot to be said for 3♦ invitational+, which is what I usually play. You end up right-siding all contracts. You just need to add a few tools:

1. Opener's 3M sets trumps, but Responder can then make a slam move by bidding shortness (probably best)
2. Opener's 4M sets trumps but suggests game-going values that are poor for slam
3. Opener's 4♣ for hearts or 4♦ for spades are power preference flags
4. Opener's 3NT could be used as a power stiff probe, in case, or 2-2 maximum (needs discussed)

That way:

A. 2♣...2♠ is five spades, invitational, might have four hearts or might not (obviously only after 2♦), unbalanced.
B. 2♦...2♠ is 5♥/4♠, invitational
C. Transfer...three of the other major is a slam move, long in major. E.g., 1NT-2♦, 2♥-3♠ or 1NT-2♥, 2♠-3♥. Either shows six of major and slammish. Sets trumps. Better than transfer...4M because you have space to discuss stuff.

BTW, if you are thinking that 3♦ messes Responder up when Opener has a maximum and bids too high for cuebids, two responses. First, if he has shown slammish values, he usually has controls, and you have safety (usually) unwinding this. Second, partner always has crap when you are interested in slam.

Besides, you can ALWAYS try Stayman, then 3♥ Smolen, and then worst-case 4♠ if you want an alternative slam probe. Most of the time you get to cue along the way.

[Yu18772]

From what you offered I would ask with 2♣ - I dot care that much if we have 10 or 9 card fit, as I care to splinter over the response (assuming 1NT-2♣-2M-4♣ is splinter), the ♣ void is the most dubious value of this hand, and if use puppet, I am can foresee the problem.
If I get a 2♦ response I will bid 3♥ (showing 5♠) and 4♥ over the 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

Somewhat similar to Ken's suggestion of a 3D response, I play 1NT - 2D; 2H - 3D as both majors and slammy.

But building on his post:-

kenrexford, on 2011-November-26, 10:47, said:

If you want something intelligent to do, maybe try using 1NT-P-3♦ as 5-5 majors, GF. Opener then agrees spades (3♠), and you get the space available for:

3NT = step 1 = slammish with stiff club
4♣ = step 2 = slammish with stiff diamond
4♦ = step 3 = slammish with void club
4♥ = step 4 = slammish with void diamond
4♠ = non-slammish

...it seems to me that it has to be better to include 2 hand types in the 3NT bid, or perhaps even better for 3NT to start a cue auction and 4C to show 2 hand types. Perhaps:-

3NT = starts a cue auction
4C = club shortage (the 4D asks: 4H = 1 club, 4S = club void)
4D = 1 diamond
4H = diamond void
4S = to play

Hmmm, looking further down the thread I see the same structure has been suggested later but for a different auction. Surely it is better to have consistency here and use the same gadget rules as often as possible!

I would sooner always use 3NT frivolous (or serious) and 4any as serious (or curtesy) cues than have different rules apply in lots of very similar-looking positions.

[AlexJonson]

Given the terms of the OP I would bid 6S.

Big hand, big fit, two Queens I can't easily evaluate. I wouldn't try science.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2011-November-27, 14:34, said:

Somewhat similar to Ken's suggestion of a 3D response, I play 1NT - 2D; 2H - 3D as both majors and slammy.

But building on his post:-

...it seems to me that it has to be better to include 2 hand types in the 3NT bid, or perhaps even better for 3NT to start a cue auction and 4C to show 2 hand types. Perhaps:-

3NT = starts a cue auction
4C = club shortage (the 4D asks: 4H = 1 club, 4S = club void)
4D = 1 diamond
4H = diamond void
4S = to play

Hmmm, looking further down the thread I see the same structure has been suggested later but for a different auction. Surely it is better to have consistency here and use the same gadget rules as often as possible!

I would sooner always use 3NT frivolous (or serious) and 4any as serious (or curtesy) cues than have different rules apply in lots of very similar-looking positions.

True. I usually do that myself as often as possible. But, the conditions changed, and I was introducing a simple method in one post but a (better?) method that I would use in another post. The posts were not meant to be ex cathedra.

[Flem72]

With S captaining this thing, unless there is an Exclusionish or void-showing call in the mix, how do we avoid the slam when N holds

Kxx
Qx
AJxx
AQxx or

Kxxx
Qx
AKxx
KQx or

any of a wide variety of similar hands? Even with such structure, N may not be able to stop the train; S's spade suit is nothing to write home about....

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kenrexford, on 2011-November-26, 10:47, said:

This is such a bizarre sequence.

Why would any Responder bid Puppet ( EDIT: or even just regular Stayman ) holding 5-5 in the Majors ?

As shown, if Opener does have a 4 card Major ( the 3D! reply ), you don't get suit agreement here until the 4-level with a 4M bid - - not much room for cuebidding, right ?

And if Opener does NOT have a 4 card ( or 5 card ) Major ( I assume a 3NT reply ), then how do you even find the right 5-3 fit in a Major ?

The 3-level jumps, as others have mentioned are better.

Even the transfer ( to Spades ) sequence is better, planing on rebidding 3H after a simple 2S accept.
But here you get a Super-Accept:

1NT - 2H!
3H ( 4s, max, doubleton Ht ) - 4C ( 1st or 2nd Rnd Ctrl )
4D - 4H
4NT - 6C ( 1 + Cl void )
6S

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-November-29, 08:53