[kgr]

I wonder if it is best to play following DBL's as Take-out, Penalty or Optional (and if optional how have you defined them).

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3D)
DBL

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
DBL

1H-(1S)-2D!-(2S) (2D!=3cH and 8+)
DBL

1H-(Pass)-2C!-(Pass) (2C=natural OR 3cH limit+)
2D!-(Pass)-2H!-(2S) (2D=min; 2H showing a 3c Limit raise)
DBL

...and what if opener passes and responder DBL's.
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
Pass-(Pass)-DBL

...And if no constructive raise was available
1H-(2D)-2H-(3D)
DBL

1H-(2C)-2H-(3C)
DBL

[jmcw]

 kgr, on 2011-December-18, 06:37, said:

I wonder if it is best to play following DBL's as Take-out, Penalty or Optional (and if optional how have you defined them).

Here's what I play

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3D)
DBL
Maximal

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
DBL
Competative partner can pass

1H-(1S)-2D!-(2S) (2D!=3cH and 8+)
DBL
Competative partner can pass

1H-(Pass)-2C!-(Pass) (2C=natural OR 3cH limit+)
2D!-(Pass)-2H!-(2S) (2D=min; 2H showing a 3c Limit raise)
DBL
Competative partner can pass

...and what if opener passes and responder DBL's.
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
Pass-(Pass)-DBL
Competative partner can pass

...And if no constructive raise was available
1H-(2D)-2H-(3D)
DBL
Maximal

1H-(2C)-2H-(3C)
DBL
Competative partner can pass

[aguahombre]

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3D)
DBL....where 2H was a constructive 3-card raise, perhaps we should rethink the Maximal concept.

Since a constructive raise would be accepting game invites, using the Maximal Double to invite game seems a very thin needle to thread. I would vote Penalty for that one.
Edit: IMO, the reason for having constructive raises is to prepare for competition and/or eliminate the need for opener to reveal extra information with help-suit or whatever game tries you have in your bag.

In the case of the same auction where constructive raises were not available, we don't seem to have a choice but to use double as a game try in hearts.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-December-18, 09:05

[kgr]

 jmcw, on 2011-December-18, 08:57, said:

...maximal...
...competitive

Hi,
Is maximal = invite?
What is competitive DBL? Are you doing that with extra's and 4c, 3c, 2c, .. in opps suit; when is partner supposed to pass this?

[kgr]

 aguahombre, on 2011-December-18, 08:57, said:

1H-(Pass)-2H-(3D)
DBL....where 2H was a constructive 3-card raise, perhaps we should rethink the Maximal concept.

Since a constructive raise would be accepting game invites, using the Maximal Double to invite game seems a very thin needle to thread. I would vote Penalty for that one.

The range for constructive raises (8-10) is maybe a bit smaller then for SA-raise (6-9), but that doesn't seem to make that much difference?
Aren't game invites simply done with weaker hands and therefor they are not more often accepted then with the non-constructive raise?

[aguahombre]

 kgr, on 2011-December-18, 14:10, said:

The range for constructive raises (8-10) is maybe a bit smaller then for SA-raise (6-9), but that doesn't seem to make that much difference?

6-10 vs 8-10. The flat ten counts with 3-card support don't get bounced up to L.R. So, yes for us it would make a difference.

[kgr]

...trying to get more opinions:
- I'm also interested if you are not playing constructive raises.
- If you play Penalty DBL what is the minimum you need for it.
- If you play Competitive DBL what is the min/max in the suit you need?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Invite to 4H
#2 Optional / Penalty is possible (promising a trump trick9; you have 3D av. for the invite.
#3 Penalty - opener showed his hand, the X should deny a 6th heart
#4 Optional / Penalty - willigness to defend, but opener can remove the X
#5 as #1
#6 as #2

Constructive raises dont matter, the only effect constructive raises have, is that opener will
invite with less values, the probability that responder has interest going for blood (#4) is
higher.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kgr]

 P_Marlowe, on 2011-December-22, 06:53, said:

#1 Invite to 4H
#2 Optional / Penalty is possible (promising a trump trick9; you have 3D av. for the invite.
#3 Penalty - opener showed his hand, the X should deny a 6th heart
#4 Optional / Penalty - willigness to defend, but opener can remove the X
#5 as #1
#6 as #2

Constructive raises dont matter, the only effect constructive raises have, is that opener will
invite with less values, the probability that responder has interest going for blood (#4) is
higher.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Hi,
Thanks for the answer.
- I think you missed #3 and answers for 3 to 6 are then 4 to 7
- I don't really understand what you mean with Optional / Penalty: Do you mean that both are playable OR that it is a little bit penalty, but can be removed.
- I discussed this with my partner yesterday and we came at about the same agreement as given by you with following notes:
A) Most DBL's are competitive:
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
DBL
=> Invite with at least a reasonable 3c♣.
1H-(Pass)-2C!-(Pass) (2C=natural OR 3cH limit+)
2D!-(Pass)-2H!-(2S) (2D=min; 2H showing a 3c Limit raise)
DBL
=> Invite with at least a reasonable 3c♠
(Not sure if it is best to define these DBL's as 3+card)
B) When Opps have a fit then all DBL's are Take-out
C) In front of the bidder, DBL is Take-out:
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
Pass-(Pass)-DBL
=> Take-out (Wanting to bid 3H, but giving the Opener the chance to pass 3CX). We think that this is more useful then a penalty DBL.
...Not sure if this is all best.

[P_Marlowe]

 kgr, on 2011-December-23, 03:44, said:

Hi,
Thanks for the answer.
- I think you missed #3 and answers for 3 to 6 are then 4 to 7
- I don't really understand what you mean with Optional / Penalty: Do you mean that both are playable OR that it is a little bit penalty, but can be removed.
- I discussed this with my partner yesterday and we came at about the same agreement as given by you with following notes:
A) Most DBL's are competitive:
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
DBL
=> Invite with at least a reasonable 3c♣.
1H-(Pass)-2C!-(Pass) (2C=natural OR 3cH limit+)
2D!-(Pass)-2H!-(2S) (2D=min; 2H showing a 3c Limit raise)
DBL
=> Invite with at least a reasonable 3c♠
(Not sure if it is best to define these DBL's as 3+card)
B) When Opps have a fit then all DBL's are Take-out
C) In front of the bidder, DBL is Take-out:
1H-(Pass)-2H-(3C)
Pass-(Pass)-DBL
=> Take-out (Wanting to bid 3H, but giving the Opener the chance to pass 3CX). We think that this is more useful then a penalty DBL.
...Not sure if this is all best.

Yes I missed #3, but #3 is identically with #2, you have 2NT / 3C / 3D av. for pure invites, that have no interest in going for blood.
Regarding what I mean with "Optional / Penalty" - For me the relationship between T/O and Penalty is the same as the relationship
between the colors Black and White.
In a truy binary world, there are only two colors, but the real world is not binary, the real world is continiously, i.e. we have
an additional color Gray, but there is not only one color called Gray - there are different shades of Gray.
Hence for me an Optional double say - partner I have some interest in going for blood, what is your opinion, and if partner thinks
otherwise, that is fine, depending on the situtation either the T/O side or the penalty side of the double is stronger.
If you require a trump trick for a hand, that makes an optional double, you push the optional double to the "penalty side".
And if the optional double occurrs on a fairly high level, than this would also imply that the penalty side is stronger.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

As a general rule and without playing anything special, once we have shown a fit double is penalty unless it is needed for constructive purposes. For this auction that means 1M - (any) - 2M - (2M-1) - X as a general invite and everything else as penalty.