[gwnn]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-January-06, 06:57, said:

Edit: Oh, is the problem not asking at the first opportunity, but instead in the pass out seat? I think that's against the rules here (not sure, I think I lose the right to ask 'what does 2D mean' but i can still ask 'explain the auction plz'), so that makes sense as an issue.

As per jillybean's post, East asked before he passed, i.e. when it was his turn to ask.

[phil_20686]

This last example doesn't even seem improper.

It is best to ask randomly. Sometimes when you have a good hand and sometimes when you have a bad hand. Asking always is annoying and largely unnecessary, weak hands are more common than strong hands and you only need to ask with weak hands about the same number of times as you ask with weak hands to remove UI. Afterall, bidding can hardly be suggested if "more than half the time he has a weak hand", this is the essence of any mixed strategy position. I dont bluff every time in poker, just enough that the opposition always wonders if I am bluffing.

[jillybean]

 Trinidad, on 2012-January-06, 02:40, said:

In that case, this whole discussion doesn't make sense. Why discuss ethics with people who consciously ignore the most basic rules?

At least this makes clear what the answer to the question in the thread title should be: "It seems not."

Where I play, not using the stop card is as rare as revoking: It only happens when people have their brain turned off. I wouldn't want to play in a place where people never follow basic rules of the game.

Rik

The stop card is not mandatory under ACBL regulations, I would guess the majority of players never use the stop card for any skip bid.

I am surprised at the responses. Where I play, 2♦ is a standard, weak 2 bid which along with all other SA, 2/1 2x openings never includes an alert or the stop card. Perhaps 1 or 2 pairs may play 2♦ as something else but this is extremely rare. I would never ask 'is that weak?' before passing when holding KQ2,QJ63,Q2,9832, why would I ? I don't buy that this is likely to be a case of randomly asking for explanations of (unalerted) bids.
If I held a diamond stack I will check the CC or ask for an explanation of the bid, but never ask does that show length, or strength, or any type of leading question.

..maybe I should stop here and let everyones focus turn to the "Going home in the middle of the session" thread

[ArtK78]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-05, 18:53, said:

Do players ever use the stop card when opening 2x, I have never seen it.

I use the stop card for all bids that skip a level, in any auction.

That is what is required by the regulations, and it is the correct procedure.

There is a distinction between "not mandatory" and there being no penalty for violation of the procedure. The stop card procedure is mandatory.

Under "Bidding Box Regulations" on the ACBL website:

THE STOP CARD

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of
bidding.

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The
stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

NOTE: If a player forgets to replace the stop card there is no penalty. It is each player's responsibility to maintain appropriate
tempo including after a skip bid.

If the stop card is placed on the table and a skip bid is not made, the director may judge that the bid card was played inadvertently or
not. If the judgment is that the card was played after a "slip of the mind" therefore with intent, then the situation is a Law 16
(Unauthorized Information) situation, not an insufficient bid - assuming that the player does not want to make (or did make) a
purposeful correction under Law 25 B.2. An example of this situation is; 1H - 2D - (after the stop card is displayed) 2S.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 05:44, said:

A close friend of mine says that in situations such as this (especially when a bid has been alerted and partner probably knows that you don't probably don't know what it means), failing to ask transmits UI. The Laws say otherwise on this matter.

Do they?

Quote

Law 73B1: Partners shall not communicate by means such as the manner in which calls or plays are made, extraneous remarks or gestures, questions asked or not asked of the opponents or alerts and explanations given or not given to them.

The emphasis is mine.

[Trinidad]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-06, 07:46, said:

The stop card is not mandatory under ACBL regulations.

It is and it was already mandatory in the previous century, before bidding boxes were used. Back then, it was called a "skip bid warning".

I remember how the ladies at the club would recite the full statement: "I am about to make a skip bid. Please hesitate before bidding." Then they would look once more at their hand, because meanwhile they had forgotten what they actually were going to bid.

Rik

[mycroft]

My non-Euclidean Friend: the issue is the comment I made off the "top" of the "what's 2♦" sequence.

Where Jilly plays (and where I TD), there may in fact be a million different ways to play 2♦, but if it is not "natural and preemptive", *it requires an Alert*. If there's no Alert, they've already told you it's weak. If you ask anyway... Better yet, if you ask and pass...

I do realize that Australia's different.

[jillybean]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-06, 07:46, said:

The stop card is not mandatory under ACBL regulations, I would guess the majority of players never use the stop card for any skip bid.

 Trinidad, on 2012-January-06, 10:11, said:

It is and it was already mandatory in the previous century, before bidding boxes were used. Back then, it was called a "skip bid warning".

I remember how the ladies at the club would recite the full statement: "I am about to make a skip bid. Please hesitate before bidding." Then they would look once more at their hand, because meanwhile they had forgotten what they actually were going to bid.

Rik

Then the majority of players I play with are violating the laws and they should be dealt with appropriately.

When I first started playing club bridge I always used the stop card but never for 2x openings. After a while I observed the best players never used the stop card and when it was used, the 10 second pause was rarely observed, or worse.
Somewhere along the way I heard that you had to either use the stop card all the time, or never. Now I never use it.

edit: Doesn't the "should" in "Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding." make it optional?

[aguahombre]

Are we really still using Jilly's example hand from Post number 81 for this discussion? If so, note East cannot be credited with any motive for the question, nor for any thought afterward.

East raised 2H to 3!!!

[Phil]

To me, these little inquiries are more a function of annoyance than a laws breach. My partner and I are conducting a long auction and it is distracting to have to answer gratuitous questions about each and every bid. Furthermore, I hate having to tell my opponent and having my partner hear my explanation who is sitting four feet from me, and may not be on quite the same wavelength.

Most of the time the opponent just wants to know about your system. Didn't you do this when you are a newer player? ("ooh, a jump shift in a 2/1 auction is a SPLINTER. Way cool! - tell me more"). There isn't a bridge reason for them to know, but there is an insatiable curiosity factor. I think we should indulge this as experienced players. As it relates to a laws breach - most of the time there isn't one. They are just as likely to ask about an alerted call with AKx of the suit than xxx.

If its the cagey Gold Life Master that asks about one particular bid, then I'm a little more suspicious. In such cases, if its a non-important game, I just ignore the matter. If its important, then, if the UI led to a good result, then I will call the director who I hope can sort things out.

I enjoy the game a lot more when I don't feel that my lot in life is to convert my opponents and my partner into ethical souls so they can enjoy an eternal hereafter. A few years ago, this was not the case.

[blackshoe]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-06, 11:06, said:

edit: Doesn't the "should" in "Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding." make it optional?

Actually, it's the use of "should" that makes it mandatory.

Quote

Introduction to the laws: Established usage has been retained in regard to … “should” do (failure to do it is an infraction jeopardizing the infractor’s rights but not often penalized)…

Yes, what's in the laws applies equally to regulations.

"Skip bid warnings are optional" is a myth.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-06, 14:24, said:

"Skip bid warnings are optional" is a myth.

It may not be factual, but it's very "truthy".

[jillybean]

 Phil, on 2012-January-06, 11:34, said:

To me, these little inquiries are more a function of annoyance than a laws breach. My partner and I are conducting a long auction and it is distracting to have to answer gratuitous questions about each and every bid. Furthermore, I hate having to tell my opponent and having my partner hear my explanation who is sitting four feet from me, and may not be on quite the same wavelength.

Most of the time the opponent just wants to know about your system. Didn't you do this when you are a newer player? ("ooh, a jump shift in a 2/1 auction is a SPLINTER. Way cool! - tell me more"). There isn't a bridge reason for them to know, but there is an insatiable curiosity factor. I think we should indulge this as experienced players. As it relates to a laws breach - most of the time there isn't one. They are just as likely to ask about an alerted call with AKx of the suit than xxx.

I have no problem at all answering queries from new, interested players and these people are easy to pick out.

 Phil, on 2012-January-06, 11:34, said:

If its the cagey Gold Life Master that asks about one particular bid, then I'm a little more suspicious. In such cases, if its a non-important game, I just ignore the matter. If its important, then, if the UI led to a good result, then I will call the director who I hope can sort things out.

It is exactly this type of player who are the offenders. The LOL who has been playing for decades and should know better or does know better but still uses this and other tactics that is rattling my cage.

 Phil, on 2012-January-06, 11:34, said:

I enjoy the game a lot more when I don't feel that my lot in life is to convert my opponents and my partner into ethical souls so they can enjoy an eternal hereafter. A few years ago, this was not the case.

This advice, though hard to swallow, is what I will try to take heed of.

[gnasher]

 Phil, on 2012-January-06, 11:34, said:

Most of the time the opponent just wants to know about your system. Didn't you do this when you are a newer player? ("ooh, a jump shift in a 2/1 auction is a SPLINTER. Way cool! - tell me more"). There isn't a bridge reason for them to know, but there is an insatiable curiosity factor. I think we should indulge this as experienced players.

I think you should indulge it because the Laws require you to do so. Answering your opponents' questions isn't optional.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-January-06, 09:41, said:

Law 73B1: Partners shall not communicate by means such as the manner in which calls or plays are made, extraneous remarks or gestures, questions asked or not asked of the opponents or alerts and explanations given or not given to them.

I thought that this Law had to do with purposeful "communication". It is pretty harsh if a player is deemed to transmit UI both if he asks what a bid means and if he doesn't whilst observing a Stop Card pause. Do you really think that even though the pause is intended to prevent the transmission of UI, a player who observes it is automatically transmitting it anyway? He is, after all, forced to either ask or not ask the meaning of the bid.

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-January-06, 11:06, said:

When I first started playing club bridge I always used the stop card but never for 2x openings.

Why did you make an exception for these hands? An opening preempt generally requires a lot more thought on the part of the next player than, say, a jump to 4NT Blackwood. If I were going to be selective about the use of the Stop Card, I think that it is that latter that I would omit.

Quote

After a while I observed the best players never used the stop card

There is probably little causality here; non-use of the Stop Card is somewhat unlikely to improve one's skill at bridge.

Quote

and when it was used, the 10 second pause was rarely observed, or worse.

I would say, do the right thing yourself and let others sort themselves out how they wish. You, at least, will be protected.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2012-January-06, 16:31, said:

It may not be factual, but it's very "truthy".

Yeah, I know. Some directors even think so.

Interesting word, that. I've seen the Colbert Report a time or two, but I wasn't aware of "truthiness".

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 18:43, said:

I thought that this Law had to do with purposeful "communication". It is pretty harsh if a player is deemed to transmit UI both if he asks what a bid means and if he doesn't whilst observing a Stop Card pause. Do you really think that even though the pause is intended to prevent the transmission of UI, a player who observes it is automatically transmitting it anyway? He is, after all, forced to either ask or not ask the meaning of the bid.

No, I don't think he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. I think it depends on the bid, the form of the question, and the experience of the questioner. BTW, the Stop Card pause is intended to mitigate UI from tempo breaks, not from questions.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 18:52, said:

I would say, do the right thing yourself and let others sort themselves out how they wish. You, at least, will be protected.

I agree with this. Not only will you be protected, you can feel good about yourself. The folks who ignore the regulation shouldn't (although they probably don't think about it anyway).

Some years ago, I used the stop card religiously. After the umpteenth time my LHO just ignored it, I decided using it was pointless, so I quit. Now, having read the regulation more closely and realizing that using it is not optional, I use it. LHOs still ignore it. T'Hell with 'em. I'm doing it right.

[jillybean]

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 18:52, said:

Why did you make an exception for these hands? An opening preempt generally requires a lot more thought on the part of the next player than, say, a jump to 4NT Blackwood. If I were going to be selective about the use of the Stop Card, I think that it is that latter that I would omit.

Because I had no idea why the stop card was used and thought a skip bid was something you did over another bid - and never saw other players using the stop card for 2x.

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 18:52, said:

There is probably little causality here; non-use of the Stop Card is somewhat unlikely to improve one's skill at bridge.

If you can't bid/play like the experts then perhaps the best you can do is imitate their mannerisms

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-06, 18:52, said:

I would say, do the right thing yourself and let others sort themselves out how they wish. You, at least, will be protected.

I doubt that I will start using the stop card again. The stop is largely ignored and until the ACBL start enforcing their laws it won't change.