[schulken]

Our Unit DIC offered this riddle to his directing crew. None of us got the answer, nor has anyone else I have asked. If it's easy for you experienced folks, please let the novices like me have a crack at it before you answer. I'll provide my answer on or about January 1.

How can a defender win a trick while revoking, when not playing a trump or when the contract is no-trump?

[campboy]

Neat, it hadn't occurred to me before that this was possible. Answers in spoiler tags appropriate or not?

[bixby]

I think I see the answer, but the hard part is knowing whether I'm supposed to post it!

[jillybean]

If you do post an answer, please make it hidden. I am still working on the problem.

[schulken]

Since I posted the question, i'll suggest an approach. If you know it or think you know it, hold off until Friday until you post. At that point, everything is fair game. I hope all you deep thinkers can come up with an alternate solution so I can impress my DIC.

[chrism]

For what it's worth, it really happened (at last year's Orlando NABC).

[pran]

I have used that "riddle" myself on several occations with novice TDs, only I call it a quiz rather than a riddle.
It makes them think instead of just ruling without really understanding the laws.

[axman]

 schulken, on 2011-December-27, 17:20, said:

Our Unit DIC offered this riddle to his directing crew. None of us got the answer, nor has anyone else I have asked. If it's easy for you experienced folks, please let the novices like me have a crack at it before you answer. I'll provide my answer on or about January 1.

How can a defender win a trick while revoking, when not playing a trump or when the contract is no-trump?

Logically, the only way for a defender to revoke when he follows suit is when he is under a play penalty obligation to play a different card. Consider S [declarer] leads the C4 whereupon E brings the C2 to the table [as in OOT].whether or not W forthwith faces a card to the table L57A provides that S can name a penalty on the card W plays to the trick after E’s becomes a PC if S requires the lowest club and W plays the CA from CA2, W wins [will win] the trick while revoking.

Notably, when the lead is in dummy and dummy plays the C4 and W faces the C2 L57C1 provides that there is no PC against W nor play penalty against :

A defender is not subject to rectification for playing before his partner if ….. dummy has played a card ….

It being arguable [which I believe is valid] that there will be few occasions where the law provides for the original case above since most of the time the condition provided by L57C1 for obviating the conditions provided by L57A.

However, there are other play penalties to be considered;

For instance defender W has a C7 PC and his partner is on lead where declarer exercises L50D2 lead penalty to lead a club. However, E possessing the C2 instead leads the DA which will win the trick while revoking by not leading a club when able.

[pran]

 axman, on 2011-December-28, 10:54, said:

Logically, the only way for a defender to revoke when he follows suit is when he is under a play penalty obligation to play a different card. Consider S [declarer] leads the C4 whereupon E brings the C2 to the table [as in OOT].whether or not W forthwith faces a card to the table L57A provides that S can name a penalty on the card W plays to the trick after E’s becomes a PC if S requires the lowest club and W plays the CA from CA2, W wins [will win] the trick while revoking.

Notably, when the lead is in dummy and dummy plays the C4 and W faces the C2 L57C1 provides that there is no PC against W nor play penalty against :

A defender is not subject to rectification for playing before his partner if ….. dummy has played a card ….

It being arguable [which I believe is valid] that there will be few occasions where the law provides for the original case above since most of the time the condition provided by L57C1 for obviating the conditions provided by L57A.

However, there are other play penalties to be considered;

For instance defender W has a C7 PC and his partner is on lead where declarer exercises L50D2 lead penalty to lead a club. However, E possessing the C2 instead leads the DA which will win the trick while revoking by not leading a club when able.

This is the correct answer, but in order to avoid any quibble I think it is important to be aware that when Law 57C1 says "...if dummy has played a card..." it implies "without declarer's instruction".

[Siegmund]

It's a less interesting solution -- but would a Trick 12 situation where a defender's last two cards are the winner of the suit led and something else, and he plays the 'something else' count? The revoke must be corrected and the correction will award this player the trick on which he revoked.

[schulken]

Thank you all for your replies. The one I was thinking of was the second offered by Axman. However, Axman's first idea was excellent as well and I found Siegmund's solution thought-provoking. Happy New Year to you all.

[iviehoff]

Another situation you might consider is the following, though it is a "deemed" revoke rather than an actual revoke.

The defender wins the trick, but instead of quitting the winning card puts it back in his hand - or somehow it eventually arrives there, perhaps via the floor. If this is not drawn attention to before both sides have played to the next trick, by L67B the trick is defective and can no longer be corrected. The player is now is "deemed" to have revoked (L67B1). (If he has subsequently played the winning card to another trick, when the defective trick is discovered, he can't even put the original played card back in the trick, when required to contribute another card to it.) As a result of the revoke, tricks may be transferred to the other side, but the ownership of the trick itself does not change - and clearly everyone will agree that the defence won it.

Though I must say that there is an acknowledged problem with L67, and no interpretation of it makes complete sense. On the one hand the player did play the card; but on the other hand he is apparently not allowed to correct the defective trick by putting the played card back where it belongs.