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Forcing NT Two questions

Poll: When is a forcing NT response appropriate? (48 member(s) have cast votes)

For which system is a forcing NT response appropriate?

  1. Only in a 2/1 GF system (30 votes [62.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 62.50%

  2. In a standard 5-card major system as well as 2/1 GF (18 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

In what seat(s) is a forcing NT response appropriate?

  1. Only by an unpassed hand (34 votes [70.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.83%

  2. By both a passed hand and an unpassed hand (14 votes [29.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

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#81 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 15:46

 barmar, on 2012-January-30, 13:41, said:

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

Furthermore, Namyats isn't reverse Stayman, Unusual over Unusual isn't unusual and doesn't show a two-suiter, and splinters don't always show a small piece of something.
Would it be unduly chauvinistic for me to point out that all of these terms originated in the same country? :)

PS How about "Advancive Doubles"?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#82 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 17:12

and Grand Slam Force isn't.
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#83 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 17:53

 gnasher, on 2012-January-30, 15:46, said:

Unusual over Unusual isn't unusual


It used to be
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#84 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 18:46

 barmar, on 2012-January-30, 13:41, said:

Negative doubles aren't always negative,


Aren't they? You are either too weak to bid your suit or your suit(s) are too short. These are negatives.
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#86 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 18:53

 aguahombre, on 2012-January-30, 09:51, said:

--Goren's Bridge Complete is probably not the relevent authority on the ranges of today's opening bids and rebids.

But it is a relevant authority for "once upon a time", to which I was responding.
BCIII

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Simplify the complicated side; don't complify the simplicated side.
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#87 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:01

 ArtK78, on 2012-January-30, 09:51, said:

 S2000magic, on 2012-January-30, 09:36, said:

 ArtK78, on 2012-January-30, 09:31, said:

 S2000magic, on 2012-January-30, 01:25, said:

I don't recall double raises (of a major suit) ever being unlimited; in Goren, for example, they were game-forcing and showed 13 - 16 points.

More likely 13-18 HCP. Anything stronger would require a strong jump shift (19+ HCP).

It's not at all likely that it's 13-18 HCP. I looked at my copy of Goren's Bridge Complete before I wrote my answer; it's 13 - 16 points, not 13 - 18.

What did responder do to raise opener with 17-18 HCP?

". . . hands that are valued at 17 and 18 points in support of partner require delicate treatment. While they are not strong enough for a jump shift, they are nevertheless too strong for the double raise, and their strength must be described in a series of bids. Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."
BCIII

"If you're driving [the Honda S2000] with the top up, the storm outside had better have a name."

Simplify the complicated side; don't complify the simplicated side.
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#88 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:05

 S2000magic, on 2012-January-30, 19:01, said:

" Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."


LOL
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#89 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:21

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-30, 18:46, said:

Aren't they? You are either too weak to bid your suit or your suit(s) are too short. These are negatives.

Or too strong to bid your suit if you use NFB's
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#90 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:26

 S2000magic, on 2012-January-30, 19:01, said:

". . . hands that are valued at 17 and 18 points in support of partner require delicate treatment. While they are not strong enough for a jump shift, they are nevertheless too strong for the double raise, and their strength must be described in a series of bids. Best results will usually be obtained by bidding two suits before supporting partner's bid."

For the enlightenment of the "LOL", many players do in fact bid around their shortness, rather than directly splinter or J2N or whatever when too strong for the splinter and they want to describe their hand rather than take over from their side of the table. Magic was expressing that style.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#91 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:31

 aguahombre, on 2012-January-30, 19:21, said:

Or too strong to bid your suit if you use NFB's


Yes, and this might not be considered a negative, but the double is not called a "negative double" in this case anyway. I considered mentioning "Negative Free Bid Doubles" in the other post, but didn't think they were relevant, since the "negative" refers to the free bid, not the double.

 aguahombre, on 2012-January-30, 19:26, said:

For the enlightenment of the "LOL", many players do in fact bid around their shortness, rather than directly splinter or whatever when too strong for the splinter and they want to describe their hand rather than take over from their side of the table.


"Best results", though, will usually be obtained by having a bid that allows one to show support early in the auction. EDIT: Besides, a 17-18 point hand with support does not necessarily have a shortage in anything.

Quote


Magic was expressing that style.


No, he was quoting someone else expressing it a long time ago.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#92 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:49

 Vampyr, on 2012-January-30, 19:31, said:

No, he was quoting someone else expressing it a long time ago.

Chuck Goren.
BCIII

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#93 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 19:52

 S2000magic, on 2012-January-30, 19:49, said:

Chuck Goren.


Quite. That is who I'd assumed.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#94 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 03:44

 gnasher, on 2012-January-30, 15:46, said:

Would it be unduly chauvinistic for me to point out that all of these terms originated in the same country? :)

No, just slightly ironic :) http://2.bp.blogspot...s1600/brits.JPG
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#95 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 06:23

 barmar, on 2012-January-30, 13:41, said:

Puppet Stayman also seems like a silly name. So is Two-Way New Minor Forcing (except after the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, one of the minors isn't "new"). I'm not even sure where the name "Kickback" comes from; it doesn't seem descriptive, and I assume it's not someone's name. Negative doubles aren't always negative, and Responsive doubles are made by Advancer, not Responder (so maybe they should be called Advanced doubles?).

So get used to the fact that bridge terms don't always mean what they say.

And Lebensohl is named after the mis-spelling of the name of a person who didn't invent it.
Gordon Rainsford
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#96 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 07:54

 barmar, on 2012-January-30, 13:41, said:

.... Negative doubles aren't always negative, ....


Yes they are. "Negative" means that the double is not for penalty, which would be a "Positive" double. Negative doubles are for takeout.

The exact meaning of a negative double has to be derived from the context in which it is made and the partnership agreements. But they are for takeout and not for penalty, so they are negative, not positive. Partner can convert the double to penalty by passing, but that doesn't change the meaning of the double.
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#97 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-31, 10:24

 ArtK78, on 2012-January-31, 07:54, said:

Yes they are. "Negative" means that the double is not for penalty, which would be a "Positive" double. Negative doubles are for takeout.

The exact meaning of a negative double has to be derived from the context in which it is made and the partnership agreements. But they are for takeout and not for penalty, so they are negative, not positive. Partner can convert the double to penalty by passing, but that doesn't change the meaning of the double.

There we go. A voice of reason.
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#98 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-February-01, 06:04

 gordontd, on 2012-January-31, 06:23, said:

And Lebensohl is named after the mis-spelling of the name of a person who didn't invent it.

I agree. I didn't invent it, and that's not how I spell my name :D
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