[SimonFa]

I was stuck on this hand and so got a bit agricultural in the end and would welcome any thoughts?

MPs, WvR, dumb robots in other chairs but I'm mainly interested in different agreements rather than the pros and cons of GIB as I'd like to send this hand to partner as a discussion point.

♠ AQ
♥ A8
♦ A5
♣ AQT9874

First problem was what to open? Surely far too distributional for 2N even though NT might be the best place? I don't like 2C, not strong enough, although my partner might push it and it is forcing to 2NT in our system. We also play 2H as double negative over 2C so it might extract some info.

Against GIB the bidding went:

(P) 1C (P) 1D
(P) 3C (P) 3NT
(P) 6NT All pass

I didn't like my options after 1D and in hindsight think 3C wasn't a good bid, but not sure what? In the end I didn't want to bypass 3NT and there is still a chance we have 4 losers if partner has something like Qxxx Qxx Jxxxx x, but it is unlikely.

I did consider 4NT as invitational but as you can see just went for it.

Spoiler

Partner had:

943
KQ6
QJ932
J2

But 6NT was doomed when all 3 Ks appeared with LHO for 27% with 3NT+2 scoring nearly 90%

Full hand if anyone is interested

Thanks in advance,

Simon

[cloa513]

SimonFa, on 2012-February-20, 06:08, said:

I was stuck on this hand and so got a bit agricultural in the end and would welcome any thoughts?

MPs, WvR, dumb robots in other chairs but I'm mainly interested in different agreements rather than the pros and cons of GIB as I'd like to send this hand to partner as a discussion point.

♠ AQ
♥ A8
♦ A5
♣ AQT9874

First problem was what to open? Surely far too distributional for 2N even though NT might be the best place? I don't like 2C, not strong enough, although my partner might push it and it is forcing to 2NT in our system. We also play 2H as double negative over 2C so it might extract some info.

Against GIB the bidding went:

(P) 1C (P) 1D
(P) 3C (P) 3NT
(P) 6NT All pass

I didn't like my options after 1D and in hindsight think 3C wasn't a good bid, but not sure what? In the end I didn't want to bypass 3NT and there is still a chance we have 4 losers if partner has something like Qxxx Qxx Jxxxx x, but it is unlikely.

I did consider 4NT as invitational but as you can see just went for it.

Spoiler

Partner had:

943
KQ6
QJ932
J2

But 6NT was doomed when all 3 Ks appeared with LHO for 27% with 3NT+2 scoring nearly 90%

Full hand if anyone is interested

Thanks in advance,

Simon

Should have bid 3NT over 1D. After GIB bids 3NT, bid 6C- you have most of the strength so you don't want partner especially not GIB to play the contract.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you open 1C, your 2nd bid should be 3NT.

This showes usually showes a long suit, stopper in the undbid suits
and shortage in partners suit, usually a single, but if we allow a
doubleton, the description matches fairly close?

The advantage is, if p passes, you play at least game, and it addresses
your concerns, you dont bypass 3NT, you dont miss game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[SimonFa]

cloa513, on 2012-February-20, 06:26, said:

Should have bid 3NT over 1D. After GIB bids 3NT, bid 6C- you have most of the strength so you don't want partner especially not GIB to play the contract.

You haven't seen my declarer play

Seriously though, a good point and one that passed me by.

Simon

[Codo]

I do not know what is the common use of 1 ♣ 1 any 3 NT.
But to me, this had shown a complete different hand- something with 7 running clubs and 5-6 points outside.... (But again, maybe standard is different)
1 ♣ 1 any 3 ♣ does show exactly this hand with an ace less. So, this is out, too.

So, if you do not want to jumpshift in a suit like AQ, you better choose another opening bid. If I had no semiforcing with clubs avaiable, I had sold the hand as 22 HCPS balanced.

[cloa513]

SimonFa, on 2012-February-20, 06:31, said:

You haven't seen my declarer play

Seriously though, a good point and one that passed me by.

Simon

Save us from one post in the GIB forum about GIB play.

[Zelandakh]

You basically hold a strong 2 in clubs. This hand type comes up often as a problem type. There are several options for dealing with it depending on system.

If you have a specialist bid available, such as the 2♣ opening in Benjy or SEF then you can just use this and rebid clubs. Problem solved. Some others bundle this hand type into a Multi 2♦ opening. This is a little more complex than the Benjy option but will usually work out. The next gadget possibility is to use a 3NT rebid to show a strong one-suited hand, again something like a strong 2. This is the 1♣ - 1♦; 3NT auction some have already mentioned. There are some other (more complicated) gadgets around that use an artificial bid that handle this hand type in addition to others. Usually some form of relay structure is used to unwind the possibilities - not really B/I stuff unfortunately.

Finally, if you have none of these available then you only really have 3 options left. You could just invent a suit to jump shift into. This is obviously pretty dangerous when the only unbid suits are majors. Or you can treat the hand as balanced and upgrade aggressively for the long suit. This runs a strong risk of missing a slam in the long suit. Or you upgrade the hand to a game force and open 2♣. Of course that might get you too high. None of these 3 are exactly ideal and it is definitely worth discussing this hand type with a regular partner and deciding which solution you want to use.

[han]

How strong a hand do you think that 1C .. 3C shows?

[jmcw]

I'm curious. Given this pattern what does a 2♣ need to be.

[SimonFa]

han, on 2012-February-20, 09:23, said:

How strong a hand do you think that 1C .. 3C shows?

Normally 16+ so its a bit on the strong side.

[SimonFa]

jmcw, on 2012-February-20, 10:34, said:

I'm curious. Given this pattern what does a 2♣ need to be.

A couple more HCP points or a bit more distribution maybe 7321. As I said, (new) partner would have bid 2C on this, old partner wouldn't. The more I think about it the more I think 2C is the call with him and possibly with GIB.

[CSGibson]

If you have to choose between a slight overbid and a slight underbid early in the auction, I would suggest making the overbid. You have done justice to your values, and can let partner take control from there on out, (which means you don't feel you have to "catch up" by bidding stuff like 6N). This is the reason many players upgrade much more frequently than they downgrade - it makes the rest of the auction easier when you express all of your values early, because you can just make discouraging bids the rest of the way.


Just open 2C, planning to rebid 3C - now you will have no more reason to make wild stabs later in the bidding.

[nigel_k]

I would definitely open 2♣.

You could easily make game if partner has xxx xxx xxxx xxx and it doesn't take much more than that for game to be good. But the main problem is that, after opening 1♣, you basically have no sensible rebid on any likely auction, especially if you don't have any artificial method (e.g. gnasher) for hands too strong to rebid 3♣.

[mike777]

nigel_k, on 2012-February-20, 13:36, said:

I would definitely open 2♣.

You could easily make game if partner has xxx xxx xxxx xxx and it doesn't take much more than that for game to be good. But the main problem is that, after opening 1♣, you basically have no sensible rebid on any likely auction, especially if you don't have any artificial method (e.g. gnasher) for hands too strong to rebid 3♣.

Ya, this seems like a normal 2c and then 3c rebid.

Too strong for 1c then 3c, though granted jump minor rebids can be wide ranging.

[SimonFa]

Thanks everyone, some good advice.

I've obviously read too many anti 2C opening bids in these forums to the point of not recognising an obvious opportunity.

Regards,

Simon

[Quartic]

If I had 1♣ - 1X; 3NT available to show this hand, that's what I'd choose. Otherwise I open 2♣ and rebid 3♣.

[han]

SimonFa, on 2012-February-20, 10:48, said:

Normally 16+ so its a bit on the strong side.

No it doesn't show 16+, it is a limited bid. In beginner text books you will usually see 16-18, although many will bid it with a nice 15 as well. Or with 14 and a good 7-card suit. And with a 18 and a strong 6+ club suit you can often force to game. Any way, 20 is too much.

[neilkaz]

This just looks like a WTP open 2♣ and rebid 3♣ hand with 20 HCP, all FOUR aces, and a very good 7 card suit, and a hand that almost always is worth at least fractionally more than 9 tricks.