[HighLow21]

wyman, on 2012-February-29, 13:56, said:

Your approval means everything to me.

I'm going to refrain from resorting to your level by calling you any names now. Suffice it to say, I will interpret this as non-sarcastically as possible.

[nigel_k]

I would not overcall but would bid 3♠ after the double. Partner could be balanced with three spades and a minimum, but that is the worst case. My hand has improved a lot after the double because the three small hearts and poor spades are not such a concern. It's a lot better than a hand I might bid 2♠ with, e.g. JTxx xxx AJxx xx.

Re the other stuff, is it so hard to just respond to the substance of a post and ignore the tone and anything else you don't like?

[S2000magic]

I, for one, would not have overcalled 1♠; the suit's too weak for my taste. Move the diamond honors to the spades and I'd overcall.

As for what to do now, this is interesting in light of a conversation I've been having with my favorite partner about adopting an idea of Robert Ewen's: a balancing double is made with the same shape/strength requirements as a direct double. (I won't go into all of the arguments and ancillary agreements here; he presents his ideas well in Doubles for Takeout, Penalties, and Profit.) With that agreement, partner wouldn't have strained to double, and this is a fine 2♠ bid. Partner will know that I'm bidding because I have something worthwhile (the 2♣ bid relieved me of the obligation to bid), and if he raises me to 3♠ (showing 17 - 19 points or so) I'll happily continue to 4♠ as I would have bid as I did without the ♦K.

Opposite a partner who might have strained to double, I'd still bid 2♠ (knowing that it might be too high); I'd expect partner to raise to 3♠ only with 17 - 19 points, so I'd carry on to 4♠ over 3♠.

[S2000magic]

nigel_k, on 2012-February-29, 14:48, said:

It's a lot better than a hand I might bid 2♠ with, e.g. JTxx xxx AJxx xx.

After opener bids over the double, I wouldn't dream of bidding 2♠ on this hand, but I concede that it's a matter of style. (Partner will have another chance to speak, which he'll do if he's strong.) If my partner knows that I'd 2♠ on this hand (and he's not a lunatic), we're probably fine.

[mike777]

bd71, on 2012-February-29, 04:59, said:

---

Team game. No relevant special agreements.

1. Agree/disagree with decision to NOT overcall first round?

2. At this stage in bidding, what general strength (and/or spade length) would be suggested by 2♠, 3♠, and 4♠ bids?

3. What is your call (if not clear from your answer to #2)?

fwiw I would not overcall since pards would expect an opening hand vul

now after our pass I think 2s would be roughly 9-10 bal...this is a bit more so I would try 3s at imps vul.

[Statto]

I've skipped through most of this thread which seems to be completely off-topic.

I wouldn't overcall 1♠ in the 1st instance as the suit is poor and it has little pre-emptive value. After the double I'd start with a quiet free bid of 2♠ because partner could be balancing light, but if partner makes any further noises I'm going to 4♠, as it looks likely we have a double fit. That 2♣ rebid by RHO has improved my hand. I've no argument against 3♠ now, or even a 1♠ overcall - the ♦ and shape are quite nice.

[kenrexford]

I wouldn't bid 3♠ because I think 2♥ contextually shows a good hand with spades. So, I'd bid 2♥ and allow partner some slack if he bids 2♠ back.

And, I think everyone who does not bid 2♥ in this sequence is a ludicrous idiot, and I down-vote you as a person, you ignorant sluts.

[JLOGIC]

Lol wow just saw this thread...

Highlow did I kill your baby or something? Until today I have not even responded/read anything you have posted in a long time, why so much hostility? It is fine if you don't like the content or writing of my posts, but why does a guy as sensitive as you feel the need to say it so often? It's cool we get it

I know you haven't been around very long but it's funny that you think people just agree with me because I have won stuff. I have posted here for like ~7 years. Who knows how many posts I have, maybe 20,000? When I started posting here, I hadn't won anything. I had to earn respect through posting here just like you or anyone else did. Maybe you will be a forum-superstar in 7 years too, keep it up kid

[gwnn]

Ken really is a clown.

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on 2012-February-29, 17:28, said:

I wouldn't bid 3♠ because I think 2♥ contextually shows a good hand with spades. So, I'd bid 2♥ and allow partner some slack if he bids 2♠ back.

And, I think everyone who does not bid 2♥ in this sequence is a ludicrous idiot, and I down-vote you as a person, you ignorant sluts.

And there I was, saying (sort of) nice things about you in a parallel thread!!!!!!!!!

[Phil]

gwnn, on 2012-February-29, 17:47, said:

Ken really is a clown.

You used to be an archivist.

I liked you better then.

[the hog]

bd71, on 2012-February-29, 04:59, said:

---

Team game. No relevant special agreements.

1. Agree/disagree with decision to NOT overcall first round?

2. At this stage in bidding, what general strength (and/or spade length) would be suggested by 2♠, 3♠, and 4♠ bids?

3. What is your call (if not clear from your answer to #2)?

Of course I would overcall 1S
I would bid 3S now.

[JLOGIC]

In my opinion theres just not much left to say on these "overcall or don't overcall" threads. They have been around since the beginning of BBF, there are always people who say it's auto to do one thing or the other, but it's not like you can argue or use some kind of new logic to prove one way is better than the other. It's just a judgement and experience call on weighting which things are more likely to occur.

I mean, our hand is quite good if we catch a 4+ card spade fit, especially if they have a heart fit. That could have the makings of a double game swing, eg 1H p 3H p 4H AP and partner has KQxx x Qxxx xxxx is a possibility when you don't overcall. It will be much easier to compete for the partscore, save, etc, when we get our 1S bid in, we won't have to guess whether or not to balance later

Of course, if partner has a reasonable hand and a misfit we may get too high and/or go for a number. Or if partner has a bad fitting hand with a lot of HCP, we may just get too high.

It seems like every 6 months or so since the beginning of time there has been someone who has come and argued sides that are uncommon (though in this problem I think passing is more common than overcalling in real life), and gives arguments for his case, and gets frustrated when people are not that receptive (ie, passing with a 12 count containting 2 aces in 4 card suits). They make long very thought out arguments on things like whether or not to overcall or open a hand.

It might seem dismissive to one side or the other to not give well reasoned arguments for overcalling and counterarguments, but the reality is they are always the same and with initial actions like overcalling, preempting, opening on marginal hands there is not much to be said without trying to re-invent the wheel.

Sure, I might go for 1100, and I might win a double game swing, the question is how often will all of the winning things happen vs the losing things, and no logic can tell us that it is just limited experience, combined with what other people are doing, etc. On top of that it is possible even if playing an overcall style where it is winning to overcall with this hand, it is losing overall because you widen your range so much that you make it too hard on partner.

I will say that I think people who make definitive conclusive statements especially if they're on the contrarian side, for instance, "It is definitely right to pass with this 12 count as dealer" are probably not doing themselves any favors, if one style is dominant over another in expert bridge, then it is likely that it is right. Sometimes nothing is dominant, for instance whether to overcall this hand or not, or whether or not to play weak NT, in which case I think that definitive statements also seem silly, it is likely that both are fine. That is the method I would use over trying to reason out what to do, because the upsides and downsides are fairly obvious, it's just about weighting them, and in that case using the collective wisdom of the bridge world seems like a good idea.

[HighLow21]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-29, 17:33, said:

Lol wow just saw this thread...

Highlow did I kill your baby or something? Until today I have not even responded/read anything you have posted in a long time, why so much hostility? It is fine if you don't like the content or writing of my posts, but why does a guy as sensitive as you feel the need to say it so often? It's cool we get it

I know you haven't been around very long but it's funny that you think people just agree with me because I have won stuff. I have posted here for like ~7 years. Who knows how many posts I have, maybe 20,000? When I started posting here, I hadn't won anything. I had to earn respect through posting here just like you or anyone else did. Maybe you will be a forum-superstar in 7 years too, keep it up kid

No, I wasn't upset at you personally at all. I was being attacked for disagreeing with you when I didn't even realize I was disagreeing with you. And then later when I realized I was disagreeing with you, I said that I thought your ideas might be dangerous to anyone below a certain skill level. I then spent what felt like the next month of my life fending off truly obnoxious attacks from all over the place, even though I caveated somewhere that "I know my comment is going to be extremely unpopular, but..."

I think your ideas are fine, Justin, I guess I just wish sometimes that you'd give a little more context for some of your comments. I think it's potentially dangerous to plant the idea in someone's mind that this overcall is reasonable, without a full contextualization for them of why it's reasonable. Why overcall here? What are the risks? What are the potential rewards? Etc. Because 90% of the players out there will take this idea and run with it in all kinds of wrong directions because they don't understand exactly why overcalling is right for you in this spot and not in a dozen of other similar spots that could come up.

You are a highly regarded expert here, and going against anything you say has dire consequences, as I found out. But I think giving people an idea of why this overcall is ok, or another (similar) one isn't, could be worth its weight in gold. I believe most or all of the reasons, but I believe many who are reading this would not. And keep in mind that many people who read advice from you will overapply and misapply it, simply on the basis of who you are. Personally, I think that's the added responsibility of becoming highly regarded and famous: you need to exercise more caution and precision when you speak, because your words carry a lot of weight.

If this were in the A/E forum, it would be a totally different story, IMO.

[HighLow21]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-29, 18:25, said:

In my opinion theres just not much left to say on these "overcall or don't overcall" threads.

<snip>

This is exactly the kind of contextualization I was talking about. Thank you, Justin!

-Tate

[the hog]

HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 11:27, said:

There is nothing hyperbolic about calling the overcall idea ludicrous, in my opinion. It is an overbid, it can cost as much as -1100, and there won't be any games missed if you or partner can't act later in the hand in the vast majority of scenarios. This hand has nice diamond and club controls, but there are far too many hands partner could produce that will have no shot at game. 2♠ says "I have a free bid," which I do, barely. Barely.

If your partnership agreements are different, fine. But that's in direct violation of the prompt at the beginning of the problem.

You have a bid even without the Ace!

[JLOGIC]

HighLow21, on 2012-February-29, 18:34, said:

No, I wasn't upset at you personally at all. I was being attacked for disagreeing with you when I didn't even realize I was disagreeing with you. And then later when I realized I was disagreeing with you, I said that I thought your ideas might be dangerous to anyone below a certain skill level. I then spent what felt like the next month of my life fending off truly obnoxious attacks from all over the place, even though I caveated somewhere that "I know my comment is going to be extremely unpopular, but..."

Ok cool. It seemed like you resented me for something. There are definitely some posters who's posts I don't care for that much but I don't usually say it openly without provocation from them. That said, I understand your frustrations, I do think that some of your points are valid wrt treatment of me vs new posters, but I also strongly believe that peoples attitudes and posting styles influence the way people treat them more than those people seem to realize. There are plenty of new posters who come and gain respect in natural time through good posting with no "credentials" known about. I again think since you are new you do not realize how much of my reputation on these forums stem from previous good posting history (overall) but it's definitely true that I used to be a better poster than I am now and put more effort in.

I mean, it's a community, and a relatively small one at that, maybe how you present your arguments should not matter as much as what your arguments are, and maybe past history should not matter, but those things always do. You come off as very confident on issues that no one could be confident on, you say controversial things like they are statements of fact, and you speak as if you are a bridge expert sometimes when you aren't. This rubs people the wrong way. I mean seriously if you changed your tone a little bit and did not say that you knew you were right in the face of disagreement from almost everyone, you would be much better received.

If you even said "Overcalling 1S seems ludicrous to me, can you explain why you would do it because it seems like you have all of these negative factors and I'm not seeing the upside and I see all of these things as downsides...[insert your analysis]" or anything like that it would be very well received.

I mean, I am a bridge expert but if you look at my post I basically said that I would overcall but passing is fine, and that I would bid 3S but I'm not sure and 2S is fine. I'm not sure how that post drew so much hate, I will almost always speak with more conviction than that but this hand was pretty meh to me, I have no super strong feelings.

Quote

I think your ideas are fine, Justin, I guess I just wish sometimes that you'd give a little more context for some of your comments. I think it's potentially dangerous to plant the idea in someone's mind that this overcall is reasonable, without a full contextualization for them of why it's reasonable. Why overcall here? What are the risks? What are the potential rewards? Etc. Because 90% of the players out there will take this idea and run with it in all kinds of wrong directions because they don't understand exactly why overcalling is right for you in this spot and not in a dozen of other similar spots that could come up.

I don't get it. I posted that I would overcall and gave the reasons that it was dangerous and why passing was reasonable. I don't feel the need to blow everyones mind every time I post, I thought some people would be interested that I would choose to overcall, but I specifically noted why it was dangerous and what the downsides were. I assumed that other people would debate the pros and cons (I didn't really care to, as I said these kinds of threads pop up all the time and it's always the same things, imo sometimes people just want to know where to draw the line and what people would do). If I don't post my reasoning I generally post what I would do and how clear I think it is. For some reason you didn't understand my post and think my posting is vague or whatever, imo that is probably your problem since most people don't have a problem understanding what I'm saying usually.

If you wanted to know more information about why I would do something you can just ask. That is the point of a forum. If someone posts something and you want more info or clarification you can discuss it.

Your stance is bizarre, you frequently post with much more conviction and with a much more black and white thought process than me. To me most of these judgement calls on initial actions are close, there are different styles, etc. If I think it is automatic (for instance if you made it QJTxx T9x AKxx x) I would say "1S and it is automatic." If you want me every time to post why overcalling 1S with that hand is automatic, I don't know what to tell you, I'm not really gonna do that and I don't know why you would expect it.

I'm sorry that you feel overcalling 1S is ludicrous and it's dangerous for me to post it's reasonable. We have a different opinion on the matter. Many people have posted that they would also overcall 1S. If I were you and I would saw that, my view would be "wow I didn't realize so many good players would overcall with that, maybe it is more reasonable than I thought even if I wouldn't do it."

There was a thread recently where my view was that not opening 2C on like Ax AKJTxxxx Kx x was ludicrous. Since I am around bridge and bridge players all the time, I have a pretty good grasp on things usually so I was shocked when all of Bobby Levin, Geoff Hampson, and Fred Gitelman said they'd bid 1H with varying degrees of conviction. We hashed it out, and I remained pretty unconvinced by their arguments (and they of mine I think), but what I did take from it was that opening 1H is not ludicrous and I was wrong, because it is much more likely that 3 players better than me are right than that I am on a simple judgement call like this. Weighting the strength of my feelings and my skill level with the strength of theirs and their skill level, I can at least say that I think either one is reasonable at the very least, and that I was wrong in my opinion on the hand that it was ludicrous. To me this is just a rational thought process.

I just feel like people are expecting earth shattering revelations on these types of things but it's not like me saying "but what can you rebid over 1H p 1S p ?!" was something that Geoff Hampson had not thought of. Likewise it wasn't like them saying "partner might have a lot of HCP and get us too high after 2C" was something I hadn't thought of. These are matters of judgement and experience, not of logic and precision, once the general logic is known.

I would overcall QJTxx T9x AKxx x for the same reasons as this hand, and it would have the same risks, it would just be that the upside is much more and the downside is much less. But the logic for both sides would be the same, I would just feel pretty confident saying that I was definitely right with QJTxx T9x AKxx x. I feel this way because "everyone" overcalls it, and the collective wisdom of "everyone" is pretty strong in a matter like this.

I don't feel because I'm "famous" I need to try harder at posting than I do right now. I think that's a strange stance. Be better behaved, a better ambassador for the game, whatever, sure, I get that. But harder on my bridge content? It just seems strange. I post more than anyone and I often don't have time for long posts so I make quick replies and feel that I get what I want to across. Others can discuss what I say or ask me specific questions if they want, I don't feel like I have to give longwinded answers in every post I make. Posting a low content reply with what I'd do and how strongly I feel is generally considered better than posting nothing imo.

[CSGibson]

bd71, on 2012-February-29, 04:59, said:

---

Team game. No relevant special agreements.

1. Agree/disagree with decision to NOT overcall first round?

2. At this stage in bidding, what general strength (and/or spade length) would be suggested by 2♠, 3♠, and 4♠ bids?

3. What is your call (if not clear from your answer to #2)?

1. Overcalling isn't my style on these hands with a weak suit, not close to opening strength, and an unpassed partner. Change any of those and I'd overcall.

2. 4♠ is almost impossible for me, having failed to take initial action. 2♠ should be 4-5 spades and enough HCP that you would raise partner from 1 to 2 if he opened 1♠ playing 4 card majors. 3♠ is probably this hand - 5 spades with a max pass. With 4 spades & a max pass, I'd probably bid 2♥ unless playing with a complete psycho or Ken Rexford.

[Statto]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-29, 20:24, said:

I just feel like people are expecting earth shattering revelations on these types of things but it's not like me saying "but what can you rebid over 1H p 1S p ?!" was something that Geoff Hampson had not thought of.

Excellent post. But we never got to the bottom of what one should rebid after a 1♠ response having opened 1♥ on that hand...

[the hog]

HL21, I do not know if you read any of the World Championship books or if you watch vue graph, if you do however, you would be aware that the Italians, (as well as many other top players), overcall on this sort of hand. Now if you think that Versace, Duboin et al are bunnies, then fine. However i do not, so calling their decisions ludicrous is pretty silly.
Further, I cannot ever remember going for 1100 after overcalling on a hand such as this; I can remember going for 1100 after overcalling at the 2 level on a much better hand though.