[yaohung]

---

Play 2/1 unless suit rebid, 2H does not promise extra strength. 3D rebid is non-forcing for South so must bid 2NT to create GF sequence.
Our cuebid is mandatory if slam try; 4NT for North is sign-off without fit.

any suggestion for the auction? Who should take more responsibility?

[billw55]

Quote

Our cuebid is mandatory if slam try; 4NT for North is sign-off without fit.

Sounds like north owes a cuebid over 4♦. South made his try and can easily imagine two fast losers in spades, so no reason to go on now.

[aguahombre]

 billw55, on 2012-May-07, 12:37, said:

Sounds like north owes a cuebid over 4♦. South made his try and can easily imagine two fast losers in spades, so no reason to go on now.

Yep. North seems like he didn't approve of his own opening bid and is backpeddling, even though his hand is pure with 3 Key primes. Man up and cooperate, Northie.

BTW: I would like South's auction even if 2D were G.F. originally.

[benlessard]

I think its simpler if south just bid 4C and not 4D. North might have erred with 5D, but south bidding plan is poor. With minors its usually more effective to keycard low rather than cuebids.

[MrAce]

 yaohung, on 2012-May-07, 11:10, said:

Who should take more responsibility?

Not the guy who already opened with 10 hcp, so i disagree with other replies. I think South should reconsider his actions if he is making slam vs a hand that some people wouldnt even open.

I like North's bidding. To me he shows less than 2 keycard hand.

[aguahombre]

 MrAce, on 2012-May-07, 16:35, said:

Not the guy who already opened with 10 hcp, so i disagree with other replies. I think South should reconsider his actions if he is making slam vs a hand that some people wouldnt even open.

I like North's bidding. To me he shows less than 2 keycard hand.

The only thing I agree with is that some people wouldn't open that seven-loser hand with 3 prime cards in the two long suits. I just don't know any of those people.

Would they open KQXXX KJXX XX QX? Would they notice that the actual hand is better than that one when 4D was bid?

[nige1]

North's opening is brave but it's still hard to reach the slam. A possible successful auction:1♠ - 2♦ -; 2♥ - 2N -; 3N - 4♣ -; 4♦ - 4♥ -; 4♠ - 6♦

[Zelandakh]

First of all, what would a 3♦ response have meant? Secondly, if the system is that a cue bid is mandatory after a slam try then clearly 5♦ Is the wrong bid. Presumably North is showing QJxxx/QJxx/Kx/QJ or QJxxx/QJxx/K/QJx. If these are not opening hands then the wheels have come off somewhere. I guess a possible auction is 1♠ - 3♦; 3♥ - 4♦; 4♥ - 5♣; 6♦. Not exactly an ideal scientific auction though. My auction (different system) would be

1♠ = ~10-17, 5+ spades, unbal
... - 1NT = INV+ relay
2♦ = 4+ hearts
... - 2♥ = GF relay
2NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts
... - 3♣ = relay
3♥ = 5422
... - 3♠ = relay
3NT = min
... - 4♣ = relay
4♠ = 4 controls
... - 4NT = relay
5♥ = controls in both majors, no diamond control
... - 5NT = queen ask
6♣ = no ♣Q
... - 6♦ = ♦Q?
P = no

Unfortunately there is not enough space to safely find a major suit queen for 6NT. At least there is confidence over 6♦ though.

A nice challenge might be to reach 6♦ on the OP North, 6NT on the same hand but with each of the side suit queens (3 different cases, not all 3 queens in the same hand!) and 7♦ with AKQ87/9842/K2/65. That makes 5 different hands - if you would bid to the optimal contract on all of them with confidence, single dummy, then I think it is fairly impressive.

[jogs]

South should try to picture North's pattern. After 2♥ it is 5=4=four other cards. After the 5♦ raise it is 5=4=2=two other cards. Now South knows he has no club loser. North opening should cover three of his remaining four losers. South should go to 6♦.

[dave_w]

 jogs, on 2012-May-08, 07:22, said:

South should try to picture North's pattern. After 2♥ it is 5=4=four other cards. After the 5♦ raise it is 5=4=2=two other cards. Now South knows he has no club loser. North opening should cover three of his remaining four losers. South should go to 6♦.

QJxxx KQxx Kx Qx - You are right, North's opening bid covers the other 2 losers - unfortunately he doesn't have enough controls to make slam good.

What's the difference between South bidding:
1) 4♦
2) 2NT then pulling 3NT to 4♣
3) 2NT then pulling 3NT to 4♦

Addressing these in reverse order, I think auction (3) says non-solid diamonds without a club control, (2) says non-solid diamonds with a club control and therefore auction (1) is solid diamonds.
It's up to your partnership to define what you mean by "solid" in these types of auctions. Is it 0 or 1 loser opposite xx or x - that's 4 possible definitions. I like 1 loser opposite small singleton.

So South could have bid 4♦ at their second turn (2NT is okay too to find a possible 6-2 Spade fit) but then South should continue with 4♣ rather than 4♦.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 yaohung, on 2012-May-07, 11:10, said:

---

@ Zel

Does this sequence qualify for your other system where the 4D bid ( over 3NT ) now "asks" Opener :
4H! = 1st step, negative
next 4 steps are RKC replies:
4S = 0/3
4NT = 1/4
5C = 2 - ♦Q
5D = 2 + ♦Q

I think Opener with his 10 point holding ( nice as it is ) may be reluctant to bid anything other than 4H! ( negative ). If he had as little as an honor-x doubleton ♦ or even a stiff high honor, he night go forward.

[MrAce]

 dave_w, on 2012-May-08, 07:53, said:

QJxxx KQxx Kx Qx - You are right, North's opening bid covers the other 2 losers - unfortunately he doesn't have enough controls to make slam good.

I think you are too lost in theory, i would LOVE to be in slam ♦ when pd holds this and i am not kidding.

If opener leader holds AK ♠ then fine, i lose. But overall, i see the chances of making slam ♦ with this much more than the average slam hands which people think has decent chances to make.

And it is a money maker slam.

For example, i am looking at replies and see that people would be in slam if opener had

AQJxx
Kxxx
xx
Qx

The hand you gave above has more chances than this slam in practice, while looks like it has zero chance in theory due to AK ♠ losers.

[jogs]

 dave_w, on 2012-May-08, 07:53, said:

QJxxx KQxx Kx Qx - You are right, North's opening bid covers the other 2 losers - unfortunately he doesn't have enough controls to make slam good.

What's the difference between South bidding:
1) 4♦
2) 2NT then pulling 3NT to 4♣
3) 2NT then pulling 3NT to 4♦

Addressing these in reverse order, I think auction (3) says non-solid diamonds without a club control, (2) says non-solid diamonds with a club control and therefore auction (1) is solid diamonds.
It's up to your partnership to define what you mean by "solid" in these types of auctions. Is it 0 or 1 loser opposite xx or x - that's 4 possible definitions. I like 1 loser opposite small singleton.

So South could have bid 4♦ at their second turn (2NT is okay too to find a possible 6-2 Spade fit) but then South should continue with 4♣ rather than 4♦.

This is a probability game. While it may be possible
to create a hand where slam has no chance, I'm bidding
all slams where the chance of making is over 60% considering
the info available.

Also with your hand I would have rebid 4NT
instead of 5♦.

[mike777]

 yaohung, on 2012-May-07, 11:10, said:

---

Play 2/1 unless suit rebid, 2H does not promise extra strength. 3D rebid is non-forcing for South so must bid 2NT to create GF sequence.
Our cuebid is mandatory if slam try; 4NT for North is sign-off without fit.

any suggestion for the auction? Who should take more responsibility?

ATB 60N/40S

North should cue, or bid 4h kickback if that is an option, I assume North has a very normal opening bid in your style.
South has a huge hand and should do more.

[Zelandakh]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-08, 13:51, said:

@ Zel

Does this sequence qualify for your other system where the 4D bid ( over 3NT ) now "asks" Opener :

That would not work here as 4♦ does not promise a fit. The compromise convention is for situations where you have to choose between 4m being a slam try with cue bids to follow or as Minorwood. The idea is to achieve a little of both, both the slam try and the key cards, while not catering to everything - no cue bids and key cards are 1-2 steps higher than with Minorwood. Effectively, this is primarily for auctions where the minor suit agreement occurs at the 4 level.

Thus if 4♦ was setting diamonds as trumps then this would be on. I suppose it would be possible to adjust the scheme so that: 4♥ = fit, decline slam try; 4♠ = fit, accept, 1 or 4; 4NT = no fit; 5♣ = fit, accept, 0 or 3; 5♦♥ = fit, accept, 2 or 5. This is not something I have tried though and it might be dangerous for what is sometimes your only forward-going move in a minor committing you to slam opposite 2 key cards plus the trump queen. Clearly this kind of situation turns up less often in a relay-based system than natural though. I generally try to avoid auctions where I am still scrabbling round for a fit at the 4 level!

[billw55]

 mike777, on 2012-May-08, 18:33, said:

South has a huge hand and should do more.

Such as what? Take another call over 5♦?

Certainly south has a strong hand. But by itself it still has five losers. Covering four of them would be a pretty good dummy, even for an opening bid.

Some posters seem to be saying that because north already made a pushy opening bid, he is not obligated to cooperate any further. I don't agree. On this auction, north has a near perfect light opening, and he is the only one who knows it.

[Fluffy]

 billw55, on 2012-May-09, 06:39, said:

Such as what? Take another call over 5♦?

He could had bid 4♦ second round to make slam almost certain and force a cuebid instead of just inviting to it reopening 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

You'd feel a bit sick if Opener had AKQxxx/KQxx/-/Qxx, no? The OP said quite plainly that 4♦ over 3NT demands cue bids except for 4NT showing no fit. The problem is that North apparently did not agree. I am assuming that the OP is giving us an accurate description of the system in my responses. 4♦ may or may not be a good bid over 2♥ but it is not necessary to do this to force a cue bid unless the OP is lying, since taking 3NT out into 4♦ is clearly a slam try. Obviously in a different bidding system there might be a completely different auction (see post #8).

[billw55]

 Fluffy, on 2012-May-09, 08:04, said:

He could had bid 4♦ second round to make slam almost certain and force a cuebid instead of just inviting to it reopening 3NT.

I thought the OP made it clear that a cuebid was forced on the table auction. If that is not right - then what I have said may not apply.

[gszes]

 benlessard, on 2012-May-07, 14:43, said:

I think its simpler if south just bid 4C and not 4D. North might have erred with 5D, but south bidding plan is poor. With minors its usually more effective to keycard low rather than cuebids.

I am not sure what you mean here but I wholeheartedly support the idea
of a 4c bid here as a cue bid for dia. It cant possibly be a suit (3c
over 2h not 2n). When responder denies a club cue by bidding 4d N has
no other choice except 5d (or if partnership allows 4n since p did bid
2n and has to have at least a stop in clubs. 4d is indeed a slam try
but it should deny a club control IMO so I blame S.

If you are playing 4c gerber here it makes little sense since on most
sequences you would have to be lucky to be able to use it:)))))