[Fluffy]

Playing swedish defence the auction starts something like

1NT- X -pass!-pass
XX -pass-pass-2♣

pass! = forces redouble

is double by opener penalty or what?




the auction goes on:

1NT- X -pass!-pass
XX -pass-pass-2♣pass-2♠-??


again is pass forcing, is double best played as penalty or take out?

[kgr]

Fluffy, on 2012-May-05, 05:43, said:

Playing swedish defence the auction starts something like

1NT- X -pass!-pass
XX -pass-pass-2♣

pass! = forces redouble

is double by opener penalty or what?

I don't understand this question. Opener didn't DBL and was forced to RDBL. Responder will clarify his hand depending on agreements.
(For me this is: pass: strong enough to play 1NTxx; bidding: DONT)

Fluffy, on 2012-May-05, 05:43, said:

the auction goes on:

1NT- X -pass!-pass
XX -pass-pass-2♣pass-2♠-??


again is pass forcing, is double best played as penalty or take out?

After responder showed strength we play it as penalty, so penalty and forcing.
1NT-X-Pass-Pass
xx-2C-?
Here we play negative DBL because responder did not yet show strength

[gnasher]

I would assume the same agreements as after 1NT (dbl) rdbl (2♣) in a standard auction. I think the default is to play forcing passes and penalty doubles.


Note that the sequence in the OP is different from

1NT (dbl) pass* (pass)
rdbl 2♣

because in this case responder hasn't shows the values to redouble. Here I'd play takeout doubles and non-forcing passes.

[JLOGIC]

passing 2C is forcing but you can sell to 2S.

[Phil]

In a low level forcing pass situation my default agreement is 1st double cards, 2nd double takeout.

The penalty pass substitutes for the initial double. So double of 2♣= takeout, and pass = penalty or a hand unsuitable for defense.

[Fluffy]

gnasher, on 2012-May-05, 06:19, said:

I would assume the same agreements as after 1NT (dbl) rdbl (2♣) in a standard auction. I think the default is to play forcing passes and penalty doubles.

The problem I encountered with this is that you have to pass 1N redoubled with both the hands that would redouble, and the hands that would pass. with 6 balanced opposite a weak NT you are not very comfortable on a FP situation.

[JLOGIC]

Why do you have to pass with a balanced 6? Thats just straight up gangsta

[Fluffy]

it was on a 13-15 weak nt, make it 7 or 8 if you want. The real thing is, you don't need to be sure to make 1NT to pass, chances of opponents knowing that they have more strenght combined and not afraid of making a bad lead are slim. Escaping with Axxx xx Kxxx xxx doesn't look very appealing.

The hand that caused this trouble: http://www.bridgebas...2665-1335908198

A crazy example of opponents seeing ghosts and doing silly things when facing redoubled contracts on board 1 closed room of this: http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=12651

This silly case is very different because the guy to make last decision is the strong one, when he is weak he will have a lot of pressure to pass, specialy based on a source of tricks partner won't know about.

[gnasher]

Perhaps you're right that pass shouldn't set up a forcing pass - it does seem a bit dangerous to have to commit to defending a doubled partscore or playing 2NT when the strength might be evenly divided.

[mfa1010]

I would assume both passes to be forcing. If anything responder can pass 2♣ since he can see himself how strong he is.

If you don't like forcing passes then double should be takeout from both hands. Otherwise we'll risk selling to a good 8-9 card fit at the 2-level.

If they bid to the 3-level then I would assume the force is off.
It is the usual principle after strength showing doubles/redoubles that we can sell if they jump and doubles are now takeout instead of penalty.

[Fluffy]

Maybe it maks sense to play forcing pass when they are in 2m, but not if they are in 2M, -180 or -280 is not that awful specially at IMPs.

[CSGibson]

Our own agreements are: X is penalty, pass is forcing up to 2♥. After that, X behind the person showing the suit is penalty, in front cooperative.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass is forcing.

Partner was willing to play 1NTxx, i.e. he wanted to play game.

The meaning of X depends, default forcing pass agreements would
make X penalty, we switched to T/O, to make nearly all low level
doubles T/O.

In the end I dont think it matters, T/O will come up more often,
but this is mood.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gszes]

I have found it expedient to play x as penalty in FP
when I am "behind" the opp bidding the suit. I can easily
pass all other hands and give p a chance to penalize.
The advantage is that p never has to worry about making
a marginal reopening x decision vs say bidding a 5 card
suit becasue they are worried you want to penalize.
This is not as common as making the x tox but it also
far less likely we want to penalize the opps if the length
is "in front" of the opps bidding the suit.

1n x p p
xx p p 2c
p 2s p p
x

this x has to be more penalty oriented since p did not wish
to penalize and is giving you the opportunity (using the logic
from the paragraph above). You can always run to 2n (single stop
minimum) or bid 3n vul vs nvul with a hand that would pass if
nvul vs vul. You can also just bid 3c to show a t/o of the reds
(remember you had no desire to penalize 2c) or bid 3d or rarely
3h yourself. IMO there is no reason a FP situation ceases to be
forcing just because the suit has changed.

[mycroft]

I have no idea if this is right, but others play it, so:

When we XX 1NT for business, we are forced through 2m (so they can play 2♥ or higher, undoubled). We play penalty doubles after the redouble, but probably should switch to takeout (and takeout doubles of lebensohl, and...)

I don't feel comfortable saying "we have game, pard", but be willing to sell out to 2♣. But I have a way to play 1NTx (for -300 into +400, -100 into +140 and the like) and 1NTxx, so the redouble for me is safer than "pass forces redouble" to set up a force.

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2012-May-06, 16:05, said:

Maybe it maks sense to play forcing pass when they are in 2m, but not if they are in 2M, -180 or -280 is not that awful specially at IMPs.

Almost everyone for whom I have found agreements on this plays a forcing pass over 2m and no FP over 2♠. The tricky case is 2♥ where some play a forcing pass and some do not. It is very common to play the first double in these auctions as takeout. As Andy write though, the standard without discussion is still penalty.