[FrancesHinden]

OK, I think this not an easy hand to get right. If it turns out to be easy, I've posted it in the wrong forum.

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The bidding probably doesn't count as expert,but your problem is to beat the contract however they got there.
You lead the 6 of hearts, 8, 10, Jack
Declarer cashes the AK of clubs (on which partner plays 9 J and you play 2 6) and then plays a diamond towards dummy. You put in a pip which holds the trick, partner playing the 4 (standard count, if anything).

Now what, and why?

[JLOGIC]

If declarer has 6 clubs and AJx of hearts we cannot beat him. This leads me to believe I need to play declarer for 5 clubs and AJx of hearts but that would be a 1N overcall (eg Ax AJx xxx AKxxx). I cannot think of any other possible heart holding for partner besides KTxxxx on the play of the king at trick 1.

So basically I have no clue how to beat this hand. I'm sure I'd just play a small diamond irl.

[phil_20686]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-May-13, 09:39, said:

The bidding probably doesn't count as expert.

If this is the hand I think it is, we had the same auction at our table. I also passed and bid 3C.

[paulg]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-May-13, 09:39, said:

The bidding probably doesn't count as expert.

phil_20686, on 2012-May-13, 10:12, said:

If this is the hand I think it is, we had the same auction at our table. I also passed and bid 3C.

Frances right again then

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2012-May-13, 10:05, said:

If declarer has 6 clubs and AJx of hearts we cannot beat him. This leads me to believe I need to play declarer for 5 clubs and AJx of hearts but that would be a 1N overcall (eg Ax AJx xxx AKxxx). I cannot think of any other possible heart holding for partner besides KTxxxx on the play of the king at trick 1.

So basically I have no clue how to beat this hand. I'm sure I'd just play a small diamond irl.

Maybe declarer has something like

A
AJxx
xxx
AKxxx

But then we defeat this regardless of what we play now (except ♦A) But if he has the NT hand that you predict ( Ax AJx xxx AKxxx) then only ♦ back defeats.

I don't know why pd didnt play the clubs in different order, if he had QJ9 and dummy has T.

[inquiry]

like justin, i think partner needs three clubs to qj to have a chance here.
i am going to play partner for 6♥, 3♣, so the ♦ play could be from kx or a singleton. If was a singleton, a diamond back now kills the defense. IF i play a high diamond, he has only two diamond losers, if return a low diamond, he wins his nine, and again has only one diamond loser. So I must RETURN a spade if it was a singleton, this let partner win his spade honor (hopefully he has spade ak), cash the club queen (so no diamond ruff in dummy), and declarer is toast.


I am playing for something like this in partners hand...
♠AKx ♥KTxxxx ♦4 ♣QJx

if partner has instead ♦Kx for the low diamond, we need him to have something like
♠AK ♥KTxxxx ♦Kx ♣QJx,we get five tricks pretty much whatever I do.

if parnter held
♠Ax ♥KTxxxx ♦Kx ♣QJX, declarer always has probably misplayed by not unblocking spades and hooking me for the ♠J.

And of course, we can not have partner be 1-6-3-3 (low diamond from Kxx) or declarer will have a lot of spade tricks. So when the ♦J holds trick four, i guess i have to return a spade.

[MrAce]

inquiry, on 2012-May-13, 12:08, said:

like justin, i think partner needs three clubs to qj to have a chance here.
i am going to play partner for 6♥, 3♣, so the ♦ play could be from kx or a singleton. If was a singleton, a diamond back now kills the defense. IF i play a high diamond, he has only two diamond losers, if return a low diamond, he wins his nine, and again has only one diamond loser. So I must RETURN a spade if it was a singleton, this let partner win his spade honor (hopefully he has spade ak), cash the club queen (so no diamond ruff in dummy), and declarer is toast.


I am playing for something like this in partners hand...
♠AKx ♥KTxxxx ♦4 ♣QJx

if partner has instead ♦Kx for the low diamond, we need him to have something like
♠AK ♥KTxxxx ♦Kx ♣QJx,we get five tricks pretty much whatever I do.

if parnter held
♠Ax ♥KTxxxx ♦Kx ♣QJX, declarer always has probably misplayed by not unblocking spades and hooking me for the ♠J.

And of course, we can not have partner be 1-6-3-3 (low diamond from Kxx) or declarer will have a lot of spade tricks. So when the ♦J holds trick four, i guess i have to return a spade.

Thats also a good prediction (that pd may have stiff ♦) But then why pd didnt play trumps in different order, or why did not he bid 2♠ with AKx spade and a side stiff ? But none of those are clear hints, so you may have a good case for playing back spade imo.

EDIT: if that was the case though, declarer could have made it with a different play. He could play 3rd ♣ instead of ♦ at trick 4. that pretty much gives away the shape of East ( 6♥ +3♣ and not bidding 2 spade he must have at most 3 spade....After 3rd club he cant go wrong i think.

[JLOGIC]

Declarer having x AJx K98x AKxxx would explain him not overcalling 1N. Good call.

[FrancesHinden]

phil_20686, on 2012-May-13, 10:12, said:

If this is the hand I think it is, we had the same auction at our table. I also passed and bid 3C.

It's not. It is not from the S4s.

[Fluffy]

EDIT, nonsense

[rtewari]

Declarer does not appear to be 2-3-3-5 as 1NT is the preferred bid.

As suggested by someone, 1-3-4-5 is a possibility but then 7 of diamond winning the trick makes it a little against the odds as a more practical play would be to play towards queen. When it holds, take heart finesse and play diamond king from hand hoping for Jx or Tx with RHO. Low diamond works when RHO has A singleton/doubleton. Also, exiting 3rd club is an option for declarer before touching diamonds.

I would prefer to place declarer with a 2-4-2-5 shape. Partner needs to have heart 7 and spade ace to defeat this. Spade king will not do as he will be caught in a strip throw in. Of course, this is assuming that partner chose to rebid 2H with only 5 rather than respond a 3 card diamond. Declarer may be trying to eliminate diamonds before setting up a spade trick with RHO forced to allow entry to dummy in hearts. I would try a low diamond, let partner win with king, cash club queen and exit a low heart. This way the entry for winner spade is prematurely knocked off and we get a heart loser in the end.

[Fluffy]

What was the double dummy defence?

[inquiry]

Fluffy, on 2012-May-17, 15:06, said:

What was the double dummy defence?

it is 50-50, either a spade or diamond here is right...

[Free]

inquiry, on 2012-May-17, 20:34, said:

it is 50-50, either a spade or diamond here is right...

Yeah, but we have 4 ♦s and 5 ♠s left, so if we pick a random card it's more like 56-44

[FrancesHinden]

rtwari has the hand approximately correct, but you don't even need partner to have the 7 of hearts (although he does) if you play a spade now.
This is the full hand:

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I don't think partner can have AKx of spades given his club carding.
The way to beat it whatever partner's heart holding is (assuming it includes the king) is to play a spade now. Partner can duck this, then between you, you win the second diamond, cash the ace of spades and exit in diamonds.
What happened at the table is that declarer boringly played the SK out of hand, partner ducked and declarer was hopeless. The discussion we then had was how easy it was to defend if declarer started on diamonds, and this hand claimed it as easy, because 'we are basically double dummy'. Hmmm.

[dave_w]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-May-20, 09:48, said:

rtwari has the hand approximately correct, but you don't even need partner to have the 7 of hearts (although he does) if you play a spade now.
This is the full hand:

---

I don't think partner can have AKx of spades given his club carding.
The way to beat it whatever partner's heart holding is (assuming it includes the king) is to play a spade now. Partner can duck this, then between you, you win the second diamond, cash the ace of spades and exit in diamonds.
What happened at the table is that declarer boringly played the SK out of hand, partner ducked and declarer was hopeless. The discussion we then had was how easy it was to defend if declarer started on diamonds, and this hand claimed it as easy, because 'we are basically double dummy'. Hmmm.

Talking of being double dummy - only a Diamond continuation beats the hand. If we play a Spade now, declarer plays the Ten from dummy, partner ducks (otherwise Declarer unblocks the King and later hooks the nine). Declarer can then hook the Heart and ruff the 4th Heart in dummy. And loses 1 Spade, 2 Diamonds and a Club.

We need to get partner in to cash the 3rd Club. If we continue the ♦J, declarer can duck and partner has to work out to overtake with the King. Probably easiest was for partner to overtake the Diamond spot and cash the top trump.

Interestingly, partner does need to have the ♥7 - or an initial Heart lead blows the contract (and Declarer has to play your suggested line of leading Diamonds out of hand .... the ♠K is no good).

[MrAce]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-May-20, 09:48, said:

rtwari has the hand approximately correct, but you don't even need partner to have the 7 of hearts (although he does) if you play a spade now.
This is the full hand:

---

I don't think partner can have AKx of spades given his club carding.
The way to beat it whatever partner's heart holding is (assuming it includes the king) is to play a spade now. Partner can duck this, then between you, you win the second diamond, cash the ace of spades and exit in diamonds.
What happened at the table is that declarer boringly played the SK out of hand, partner ducked and declarer was hopeless. The discussion we then had was how easy it was to defend if declarer started on diamonds, and this hand claimed it as easy, because 'we are basically double dummy'. Hmmm.

I think your analysis is incorrect about the solution. If you play ♠ declarer can make by inserting ♠9 regardless of what your pd does. And i don't even think it needs a double dummy declarer play.

You are assuming (wrongly) that if you play ♠ declarer will keep on playing ♦.

Besides, i would not have trusted this pd for ducking the first ♠ anyway even if that was one of my options to rely on. Why on earth is he letting the first ♦ to us ? He needs to cover with T, cash his last trump, and cash ♠ A. If we encourage continue spade, if not plays diamond. There is no way we can set this if declarer has both spade K and diamond A. (that would mean we made a neg double with air also)

[dave_w]

MrAce, on 2012-May-20, 23:33, said:

I think your analysis is incorrect about the solution. If you play ♠ declarer can make by inserting ♠9 regardless of what your pd does. And i don't even think it needs a double dummy declarer play.

You are assuming (wrongly) that if you play ♠ declarer will keep on playing ♦.

Besides, i would not have trusted this pd for ducking the first ♠ anyway even if that was one of my options to rely on. Why on earth is he letting the first ♦ to us ? He needs to cover with T, cash his last trump, and cash ♠ A. If we encourage continue spade, if not plays diamond. There is no way we can set this if declarer has both spade K and diamond A. (that would mean we made a neg double with air also)

Talking of wrong analysis .....

You are mostly right. Why didn't partner overtake and cash the trump? As this wasn't the play at the table I understand that Frances didn't think of that. But if you cash the ♠A then declarer unblocks the King and that's the end of the hand. In fact it's a very tough play from East's after overtaking the Diamond to play a trump. Exiting "safely" in Diamonds doesn't work: declarer ruffs and play the ♠K (ducked) and another Spade and we are endplayed to take the Heart hook for declarer. Oddly, despite there being no entry to take the Heart hook we can exit in Hearts! We were always going to be forced to do it sooner or later, and sooner kills the entry to the long Spade trick which is rightfully declarer's.

[kayin801]

Declarer has a rough time ruffing a heart in dummy if East covers the 2nd heart with the K after ducking a spade. Either the defense cashes out if declarer ducks or declarer is stuck in dummy without a way to hand after playing a 3rd heart. Continuing spades or diamonds leads to declarer getting stuck in hand unable to ruff in dummy or use the established ♠Q cause E gets in to cash the master trump.

Good problem. I was afraid of a spade cause I thought it might just end the hand right there if declarer guessed right. Probably would have tried a diamond at the table.

[MrAce]

dave_w, on 2012-May-21, 00:29, said:

Talking of wrong analysis .....

You are mostly right. Why didn't partner overtake and cash the trump? As this wasn't the play at the table I understand that Frances didn't think of that. But if you cash the ♠A then declarer unblocks the King and that's the end of the hand. In fact it's a very tough play from East's after overtaking the Diamond to play a trump. Exiting "safely" in Diamonds doesn't work: declarer ruffs and play the ♠K (ducked) and another Spade and we are endplayed to take the Heart hook for declarer. Oddly, despite there being no entry to take the Heart hook we can exit in Hearts! We were always going to be forced to do it sooner or later, and sooner kills the entry to the long Spade trick which is rightfully declarer's.

I have to admit that i knew contract was 3♣ when trying to defend from W, I was defending 4♣ for some reason by east. As if 2♠ or 2♦ tricks was enough for defense.

My comments on East's actions were nonsense in 3♣