[32519]

Off topic but still an interesting read: Mind Games.

[Cthulhu D]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-21, 03:15, said:

Imagine how good Meckstroth and Fantoni and Helgemo and Hamman could REALLY be!

I know this is a joke, but to tackle it seriously, I would bet money that over 192 boards a team of 4 bob hamman's now vs 4x Bob hamman's brain in a marathon runners body the second team would win. However it's obvious that in Bridge the luck and skill factors outweigh the fitness factors considerably.

But if you're just looking at yourself and your own skill, and the specific problem is you're losing concentration in long matches, and we know that fitness improves concentration and alertness I think hitting the gym is hardly unreasonable. Also, I don't think the two activities substitute for each other (if you're hitting the gym are you playing less bridge? Doesn't seem likely), so you may as well do both.

I personally know it makes a massive difference to both how fast and how accurately I can do complex analysis when tired vs fresh and I get tired faster when less fit. But hey, I'm not the first one to suggest losing weight makes you better at bridge: Didn't Paul Solway and Bob Hamman go to a weight loss clinic in the run up to a Bermuda bowl to improve their performance? You'd probably have better access to their view on how that worked out than I do.

[Phil]

I think what Justin is saying is that if you have to choose between the gym and logging a LOT of hands day in and day out, play bridge.

I do not think he is implying that being in good shape is unimportant.

If you compare day 1 to day 6 of most tournaments, in my opinion, there is a big difference in the quality of play, but its universal, and even those that seem like they are in good shape are dropping tricks.

[bluecalm]

But how do you know that it's not actually better to be fat ?
Maybe fat helps your concentration or at least bridge specific concentration ?
I mean, you are stacking unproved common wisdom (being in shape helps) against hard empirical evidence:

http://www.federbrid...o%20Fantoni.jpg
http://www.acbl.org/..._meckstroth.jpg
http://www.bridgetop...375.preview.jpg
http://www.bcstar.nl/images/geir.jpg

[neilkaz]

bluecalm, on 2012-June-21, 06:13, said:

I share JL sentiment. I played chess at competitive level as a junior and while coaches liked to talk about regular exercises, getting sleep and good diet the people who delivered at the end of the day were the one who played a lot of chess and for a long time, often being overweight, habitual drinkers and partying to late night/early morning.

There is hope though, the top spot in chess was occupied by someone who took psychical training very seriously (Kasparov) for about 20 years and most top 10 players these days are quite fit.
Chess is different than bridge though. In chess you need to concentrate for much longer and don't have many breaks while in bridge you have a lot of long breaks and short moments when concentration is needed while the whole thing lasts longer. So I guess stamina needed for bridge is of different kind (more similar to long blitz chess tournament)

Yes, chess, which I played at the expert level when I was younger requires more long term concentration with no breaks than does bridge or backgammon (my real game). Bobby Fischer also took physical training seriously. A few years ago, before he retired, I spent a few minutes at dinner with Kasparov after his Simul at the CBOE where I trade, and it was quite clear that he took very good care of his body and mind.

In BG at the top world class level, much is nearly automatic, until some situation comes up where you're not sure and you have to think since thinking may help you get it right. We play a lot of BG on Saturday's in typical US events, often starting around noon and if you're still alive in the event you may be playing til 1 AM and then have to play again at 10 AM.
There are side events on Friday, and while these are single elim, you may have a conflict and have more matches to play Sunday if you're still alive in then as well. ie..this can be almost constant BG on short sleep except for the dinner break.

I have considerably less stamina than I did 20 or 30 years ago and I suspect that if I were in better shape, I'd probably be less tired and over the past couple years would have made a few less errors and been better able to handle the stress of long periods of bad luck during game after game in BG matches.

Some of what I've learned is to try to conserve energy and some of this may be applicable to bridge.

I'll talk about some of that in a later post (Have to leave for local regional bridge T soon) but will say that what Ron said about knowing the system 100% cold and being confident that PD also knows it 100% is certainly helpful from my past bridge experiences. This saves energy and stress since neither player is wondering what "this then that bid" bid means.

[Phil]

bluecalm, on 2012-June-22, 05:33, said:

But how do you know that it's not actually better to be fat ?
Maybe fat helps your concentration or at least bridge specific concentration ?
I mean, you are stacking unproved common wisdom (being in shape helps) against hard empirical evidence:

http://www.federbrid...o%20Fantoni.jpg
http://www.acbl.org/..._meckstroth.jpg
http://www.bridgetop...375.preview.jpg
http://www.bcstar.nl/images/geir.jpg

OK, Levin, Cohen, Hampson, Greco, Robson, bla bla

can't forget seksi Phil of course.

[Siegmund]

Quote

If you compare day 1 to day 6 of most tournaments, in my opinion, there is a big difference in the quality of play, but its universal, and even those that seem like they are in good shape are dropping tricks.

I don't know if I am typical... but for me this is not how I feel about it. Under normal circumstances I get to play a few sessions of bridge here and there, squeezed around work and other commitments, and don't play enough to keep sharp - and especially if I play a lot online and not much live, I forget how to tune out distractions around me. A week-long tournament is a rare opportunity to practice bridge daily. I am playing a lot better on Thurs/Fri/Sat of a typical regional than on Mon/Tue/Wed. I always try to make a point of arriving the day before if I can so I am well rested - when I was younger there were times I flew to a regional on a redeye Sun night / mon morning, had a board meeting all day Monday, and then had to play a KO Mon night and three sessions Tuesday. Even my 25-year-old self was not equal to THAT. (I also gave up the morning continuous pairs even when I had free play coupons for it, to the benefit of my main-event results. I don't know how much of it was actually a stamina issue, vs. the event schedule not agreeing with my sleep pattern: I quite enjoy 72-board bridge "dinners" that start at noon and run straight through to 10 or 11 at night with an hour for dinner about 2/3 way through.)

But if there is one thing I could do differently to prepare for a regional than I do now -- it would be to play live bridge twice a day starting the Saturday before, instead of Monday night.

Sunday of course is an exception. Getting up early Sunday after having been up late every night all week is a killer. Might as well just go home. If THAT's which "day 6" you meant, well, yeah.

[Tataie]

Pussies.
Cardio will get better and even if you ll blow eventually, you are going to feel better.

[FrancesHinden]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but a few things to add:

If you are used to playing no more than 28 boards a day that I agree it's blindingly obvious you will struggle on boards 29-onwards. When I was at university, the uni club played in the local inter-county league, team of 8, A B and C teams, 32 board matches. The A team were mainly keen juniors and had experience of longer matches, but the B and C teams every single match their results were ALWAYS much much worse on boards 25-32. They were used to a 24-board evening duplicate and simply didn't have the practice at playing for longer.

The bad news IMO is that playing a lot of boards online, or multiple sessions a day, will help, but it won't help that much for something like the Europeans. As Jallerton says, a 20-board set with screens is 20 hours 50 minutes with no break. That's totally different from a 3-hour pairs duplicate. Many English events are 40-50 boards a day for two days at the weekend, and getting used to that is a big improvement over only playing 28-boards, but I can happily play a weekend like that without a worry and I'm still exhausted after 2 days of 2x20 trials matches.

The English trials are the same format as the Europeans, except over 3 weekends, i.e. 3x20 board sessions a day with screens. It would seem a good idea to suggest that the Spanish trials (do you have trials?) are the same.

On the getting fit side of things, saying "here are some unfit overweight people who are gods at bridge, therefore being fit is irrelevant" is like saying "here is a healthy 90-year-old who has smoked 50-a-day for 50 years, therefore smoking is not bad for you". I sleep better and play better when I get a reasonable amount of exercise. Also, of course, being both fit and not overweight is good for you and will extend your lifespan, apart from what it may do for your bridge ability.


p.s. my sources tell me that both Helgemo & Fantoni have recently been on a diet...

[mfa1010]

... and Alfredo Versace has been spotted inside a gym. (Actually doing work-out )

Interesting thread. I think not only the # of boards is important but also the fact that the opposition is tough all the way. Being able to play 60 boards against blue hair is not the same as being able to play 60 boars against national teams. Or 40 or whatever number. Takes practice.

I don't think healthy food is so important during the relatively short time of the tournament. Radically changing ones eating habbits might be however. I tend to have a blood sugar problem and I try to be especially careful about my breakfast. Switching from my usual dark rye bread to bacon & egg & sausages etc. will really destroy me for instance.

And then there is the alcohol issue. Great to get a pint in the bar after the play, love it. But worse for the stamina the next day and in the long run than what I am usually able to admit.

[Fluffy]

I've lost 3 Kg so far, but my play is pathetic, yesterday I managed to go down in 4 contracts that were cold at some point in the last part of a 5 hour session online. Most important, I was not aware of what was really going on at the table. Lack of caffeine and probably sugar as well have a role. I can solve the sugar easilly, but the caffeine at some point becomes useles on long tournaments, I hope I can improve somehow.

[Zelandakh]

You realise that caffeine inhibits your ability to take in information, no? During the revision period for my Final exams I banned myself from taking any caffeine at all - no coffee, no cola. When playing bridge my drink of choice is fruit juice, which I like to think provides sugar in a better form than sucrose or glucose. In truth though, I just choose it because I happen to like it and if there is (free) coffee available then I cannot resist a cup or 2. If I were a professional looking to reach a competitive standard in events like the BB though I think I might take these things a little more seriously and come up with a consistent ritual for every session.

I suspect that the best advice would be to make sure that you always feel comfortable at the table and, as standard, have everything with you that you might need; and simply to practise playing multiple sessions of hard bridge day after day. It is amazing how this helps to improve your concentration span as well as how quickly this starts to drop off when you stop. For example, I noticed a big improvement in my exam performance in the last half hour when I started playing chess regularly; similarly a major reduction in concentration time when I stopped. The same is also true, although to a lesser extent, when I play more (or less) bridge for a while.

[lalldonn]

You shouldn't get healthy because it will help your bridge. You should get healthy because sitting around playing bridge all the time is so bad for your health.