[Phil]

So Timo you think a counter measure to a wide ranging 3rd seat opener is to make an equally wide ranging preempt by 4th seat?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[kfay]

I know I haven't posted much in the forums lately, but since when has a limit raise become the new game force? Especially after partner opens 3rd seat?



Can't imagine bidding only 3♥? What?

[mfa1010]

Phil, on 2012-July-05, 15:47, said:

So Timo you think a counter measure to a wide ranging 3rd seat opener is to make an equally wide ranging preempt by 4th seat?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Why not? Preemption gets more effective the less precise the opening bid is. In 4th seat we can afford to be a little heavy since partner is passed. It makes sense to me to preempt even more often when 3rd hand is an undisciplined opener, since they will have tougher guesses.

[Phil]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-05, 16:05, said:

Why not? Preemption gets more effective the less precise the opening bid is. In 4th seat we can afford to be a little heavy since partner is passed. It makes sense to me to preempt even more often when 3rd hand is an undisciplined opener, since they will have tougher guesses.

Michael you are preempting a hand that has already passed.

Again this seems like a dubious strategy.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2012-July-05, 18:12, said:

Again this seems like a dubious strategy.

When i see an experienced player like you, doubles and then bids 3♥ with a real fit and max,hiding the fit to a major suit and trying to find another 4-4 major fit after a preempt, i think it is a great strategy.

As i said it doesnt even have to be a preempt.

But anyway, it is impossible to get everything right for them once you put them into a situation where they constantly have to make decisions. You can preempt with a 12 hcp 6 card suit if you believe it is very unlikely to make game with a passed pd, or you can have a genuine preempt. You are killing their controlled psyce tool. Now they will have to decide whether they should bid 3M over your preempt with a 7 hcp and 4 card fit, if they dont, thinking that this may show a hand like the one we have here this is a big gain. I love it. The dudes have 9-10 card fit and they cant support each other. If they do, then his pd may think like Kfay and bid game, totally random results. This is exactly what you want to achieve, you are taking them out of their comfort zone, and putting on to a slippery road. If they figure this out and stop opening that kinda hands, you are still gaining because then you basically pushed your opponents back to where they belong and they no longer will open with ridicilious hands in 3rd seat just to mess your bidding, at least not risk free. If you dont they are taking ZERO risk. Controlled psyche convention protects them.

Note that i am suggesting this ONLY IF you believe that your opponents are abusing these 3rd seat openings just to make your life miserable each time you hold a good hand in 4th seat. I am not saying we should do this against every opponent. I am not saying you need to make preempt with hands that are ridicilous. If you read what i said, i am suggesting we should lean towards making more preempts, intended to say if there are hands where you normally think about preempting but talk yourself usually not doing it because of whatever reason, i suggest to talk youself other way arround against this type of 3rd seaters. I am not telling you to bid 3 minor with 5332 or 5431.

Phil, on 2012-July-05, 18:12, said:

Michael you are preempting a hand that has already passed.

Really ? Having said that he has 0-11 hcp doesnt really help them very much since the range is still way too wide. Especially when mixed with the frequent and dubious 3rd seat openings i can tell it preempts at least as he was an unpassed hand, if not more. This topic is a good example to explain why.

Now the guy preempted, and we see replies in this topic

-DBL
-3♥
-4♥
-3♦
-4♣

LOL

Now lets see what would happen if the guy didnt preempt.

1M--2♣ (drury) .....after that they can learn what did their pd eat yesterday, how many times he had sex, which movies he watched last year...

Phil you are getting old, you are losing the eye of the tiger bro. You know why people punch boards ? Because they dont hit back


||
||
||
||
\/

[Zelandakh]

Phil, on 2012-July-05, 18:12, said:

Michael you are preempting a hand that has already passed.

Our partner has also already passed. So if we are weak enough not to have game on without support then we can happily preempt knowing that RHO must have some strength for their opening bid. Similarly we can jump to game on almost anything from a Yarborough to any hand where we can rule out slam. I am a strong believer in wide-ranging preempts opposite a passed partner, and the extra ambiguity if the opponents play weirdness in third seat makes this even more enticing. Either the points are evenly distributed and we are (probably) at our Law level, or Opener has a biggy and our preempt is against strength - great. This is not that dissimilar from preempting with good hands as well as total rubbish in third seat to make life miserable for fourth hand. The less information the opening bid conveys the more these cases converge.

[benlessard]

opps are vul and Im assuming they know -200 is a bad MP score. So I expect that they have some hope of making 3C, I also understand that im going to compete to 3H agressively here knowing that its going to be tough for them to double me and that 3H -2 undoubled is probably going to be a very good MP score. So if im willing to bid 3H agressively with some 6-9 pts hands why would I also bid 3H with a pretty good limit raise ?

Also my style is to open light with lead directing suit, here I have KJ so my guess is that partner is 70% favorite to have a real opening.