[mamos]

 bluejak, on 2012-December-31, 15:02, said:

Humph.

Of course, it is the same thing: "everyone" plays top from a doubleton as well as bottom from Hxx, so 2nd and 4th refers to the bits that are likely to change. It is, of course, only a name. Personally, I say 4th and 2nd which seems to give the flavour of it a bit better.

Everyone?????

David you might like to look at a few Polish Convention cards and maybe a few other Eastern Europeans

I think you can never assume that others play as you do or indeed will explain as you do. I recall a pair from Luxemburg who had 2nd and 4th written on their (WBF) CC and a very experienced English player who thought this meant Hxxxx or xxxx when it meant xx

Mike

[bluejak]

If you read back in the thread you will discover I was talking specifically about England. Of course I know it is different in other countries. Even if I did not I would not be so arrogant as to assume what they do in countries I have neither visited nor had any connection with.

[Vampyr]

 bluejak, on 2012-December-31, 17:46, said:

If you read back in the thread you will discover I was talking specifically about England. Of course I know it is different in other countries. Even if I did not I would not be so arrogant as to assume what they do in countries I have neither visited nor had any connection with.

The discussion of "2nd and 4th" was specifically in relation to how the term is misunderstood by people from different countries.

[bluejak]

And my comments went on to its use in England. Please keep up!

[mgoetze]

 bluejak, on 2012-December-31, 15:02, said:

Of course, it is the same thing: "everyone" plays top from a doubleton as well as bottom from Hxx, so 2nd and 4th refers to the bits that are likely to change.

Right. Except that when I play "2nd and 4th", I lead Hxx and xx, and this is what people in Germany will expect.

[campboy]

My local supermarket sells "American-style muffins". This seems like a perfectly good way of avoiding any confusion.

[Vampyr]

 campboy, on 2013-January-02, 16:40, said:

My local supermarket sells "American-style muffins". This seems like a perfectly good way of avoiding any confusion.

Are these the same ones that are called English Muffins in the US?

[Bbradley62]

 Vampyr, on 2013-January-02, 16:47, said:

Are these the same ones that are called English Muffins in the US?

No. American muffins are the ones baked in cupcake-trays with paper holders.

[bluejak]

Ok, if everyone chooses to misunderstand, I can only explain again in further detail.

A lot of the use of names is based on localised knowledge, the locality often being a country. As I know, and has been pointed out several times on this thread, and as is well-known to people who have read this thread carefully and to many other people, there are places in the world where people lead low from xx and second from Hxx.

The name "second and fourth" in England is based on English usage. Properly it should be "fourth and second" but the name "second and fourth" is in general usage and has appeared on printed System cards. A vast majority of English players, probably over 99%, play one of the following:

Fourth and second, called "Second and fourth"
Third and fifth, including fifth from six or seven
Third and lowest, usually called "Third and Fifth" [!!!]
Attitude

There are confusions based on English players playing abroad, or non-English players playing here.

People like Nigel do not approve of basing things on what people are used to, but wants everything to be American. Actually, he would deny that, but he wants everything to be the same, and the only way to get that is to make everything American.

What do I want? I like the way it is, with people being tolerant. People worry too much about minor problems, and want solutions that the majority will hate, or just ignore. To use the old English phrase, some people want "a sledge-hammer to crack a nut".

[Cthulhu D]

 bluejak, on 2013-January-03, 09:47, said:

Ok, if everyone chooses to misunderstand, I can only explain again in further detail.

A lot of the use of names is based on localised knowledge, the locality often being a country. As I know, and has been pointed out several times on this thread, and as is well-known to people who have read this thread carefully and to many other people, there are places in the world where people lead low from xx and second from Hxx.

The name "second and fourth" in England is based on English usage. Properly it should be "fourth and second" but the name "second and fourth" is in general usage and has appeared on printed System cards. A vast majority of English players, probably over 99%, play one of the following:

Fourth and second, called "Second and fourth"
Third and fifth, including fifth from six or seven
Third and lowest, usually called "Third and Fifth" [!!!]
Attitude

There are confusions based on English players playing abroad, or non-English players playing here.

People like Nigel do not approve of basing things on what people are used to, but wants everything to be American. Actually, he would deny that, but he wants everything to be the same, and the only way to get that is to make everything American.

What do I want? I like the way it is, with people being tolerant. People worry too much about minor problems, and want solutions that the majority will hate, or just ignore. To use the old English phrase, some people want "a sledge-hammer to crack a nut".

The point is though it's silly to ban describing your leads as 2nd or 4th if you actually lead 2nd and 4th (the Continental style), which is currently banned because the English persist in describing stuff that is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th as 2nd or 4th.

[Vampyr]

 Cthulhu D, on 2013-January-04, 00:10, said:

The point is though it's silly to ban describing your leads as 2nd or 4th if you actually lead 2nd and 4th (the Continental style), which is currently banned because the English persist in describing stuff that is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th as 2nd or 4th.

It's a shame that the same descriptive phrase is used to describe two different systems of leads; but it's important to recognise local custom and practice. As David correctly (though confusingly) pointed out earlier, when you say "2nd and 4th" in England, English players will know what you mean. When you say it in Poland, the Poles will know what you mean. The problem arises when the speaker and the listener are from cultures who interpret the phrase differently -- but 99% of the time it is people playing against their own nationals and no problems arise. This would not be the case if "2nd and 4th" meant two different things within the EBU. This ban is entirely sensible.

People who play abroad, or who frequently play against foreigners should be aware of the potential misunderstanding. But these are a small majority of players, and generally more experienced to boot.

[mjj29]

So, as someone who has been trying to use '2nd and 4th' rather than 'standard leads' in order to be more helpful I'm now in a quandary given this discussion of how that is confusing. Obviously I can say "we lead 4th from an honour and second from bad suits", but is there a more concise term of art I _should_ be using which will be unambiguous to brits, poles and others alike?

[paulg]

I think standard should mean the default leads on the system card that is commonly used in the country - certainly the ACBL and the UK mark such a default. A foreigner should appreciate that they are in a different country and know to ask, as I'm sure they all would. In fact 'standard' is less confusing than '4th and 2nd' or, the real UK standard, 'we never lead fifth'.

Those who use WBF system cards are expected to look after themselves.

[nige1]

 paulg, on 2013-January-04, 06:21, said:

I think standard should mean the default leads on the system card that is commonly used in the country - certainly the ACBL and the UK mark such a default. A foreigner should appreciate that they are in a different country and know to ask, as I'm sure they all would. In fact 'standard' is less confusing than '4th and 2nd' or, the real UK standard, 'we never lead fifth'. Those who use WBF system cards are expected to look after themselves.

The EBU card defines what it means by "standard" leads" -- underlining the appropriate card from common holdings
Saving lots of time and trouble

[bluejak]

 Cthulhu D, on 2013-January-04, 00:10, said:

The point is though it's silly to ban describing your leads as 2nd or 4th if you actually lead 2nd and 4th (the Continental style), which is currently banned because the English persist in describing stuff that is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th as 2nd or 4th.

The aim of describing your methods is to be helpful. It is not silly, it is commonsense to avoid using a name which know means something different in the country in which you are playing.

Suppose you play a Strong Club with 4-card majors. Is that Precision? No, of course not, and if you tell someone in England you play Precision you are misleading them. But in Portugal all Strong Club systems are called "Precision": over there Precision means you play Strong Club. So what do you want us to do? Tell the Portuguese to change the name? Tell the English to change the name? Or tell people if they use a name which is in common use in a country to use that name as per the common use?

 mjj29, on 2013-January-04, 04:53, said:

So, as someone who has been trying to use '2nd and 4th' rather than 'standard leads' in order to be more helpful I'm now in a quandary given this discussion of how that is confusing. Obviously I can say "we lead 4th from an honour and second from bad suits", but is there a more concise term of art I _should_ be using which will be unambiguous to brits, poles and others alike?

Easy: in England, actually throughout the British Isles, use the term 2nd and 4th because it is understood. 4th and 2nd is better and is not misunderstood. But if you play abroad, do not use the term.

[Vampyr]

 mjj29, on 2013-January-04, 04:53, said:

"we lead 4th from an honour and second from bad suits"

We say this and it doesn't seem to take too long.

[aguahombre]

 bluejak, on 2013-January-04, 07:49, said:

Suppose you play a Strong Club with 4-card majors. Is that Precision? No, of course not, and if you tell someone in England you play Precision you are misleading them. But in Portugal all Strong Club systems are called "Precision": over there Precision means you play Strong Club. So what do you want us to do? Tell the Portuguese to change the name? Tell the English to change the name? Or tell people if they use a name which is in common use in a country to use that name as per the common use?

Easy answer, again: describe what the bids mean and stop naming. Then, you don't have to concern yourself about whether the opponents' concept of Precision or anything else is the same as yours.

[barmar]

 aguahombre, on 2013-January-04, 10:49, said:

Easy answer, again: describe what the bids mean and stop naming. Then, you don't have to concern yourself about whether the opponents' concept of Precision or anything else is the same as yours.

That's what you do when asked to describe a specific call. But you can't put all that detail in the "General Approach" section of the convention card, or when describing your system in general to the opponents at the beginning of a round.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2013-January-04, 12:33, said:

That's what you do when asked to describe a specific call. But you can't put all that detail in the "General Approach" section of the convention card, or when describing your system in general to the opponents at the beginning of a round.

Perhaps what we should put in there is "5 card majors, forcing x♣, weak (or strong) NT" instead of "Standard American" or "2/1" or "Precision" or…

Of course, the guidance given by the ACBL suggests using system names, but maybe that should be changed.

[mgoetze]

 blackshoe, on 2013-January-04, 13:02, said:

"Standard American"

You definitely shouldn't use "Standard American", because while in America it means a system where 1♣ and 1♦ both promise 3 cards, in Germany it means a system where 1♦ promises 4 and 1♣ could be a doubleton!

Spoiler

Yes, this is ridiculous. But sadly true.