[eagles123]

Sorry for bombarding the forum with questions, but looking to learn so here goes


I was playing just now and my p held something like

AQJxx
KX
x
AKJxx

bidding went he opened 1♠ i responded 1NT he then went 4♣ at which point I presumed gerber and responded 4♥... he quickly left at that point and a somewhat heated discussion ensued with me saying 3♣ would've been sufficient

I can't remember what my P had exactly as hand was redealt when he left, but it was around that I think

so my question is:

is 3♣

- invitational
- one round forcing
- game forcing

and was my P's 4♣ bid valid?

Thanks

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

Funny the sequence 1♠-1N-4♣ just came up elsewhere, but that was in a 2/1 context where it's a splinter apparently.

3♣ I suspect is GF for pretty much anybody.

I don't know why your partner walked away at that point before seeing your hand, what are you supposed to do with void, Qxxxxxxx, Kxxx, x but bid 4♥ even if 4♣ was natural.

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-03, 10:56, said:

Funny the sequence 1♠-1N-4♣ just came up elsewhere, but that was in a 2/1 context where it's a splinter apparently.

3♣ I suspect is GF for pretty much anybody.

I don't know why your partner walked away at that point before seeing your hand, what are you supposed to do with void, Qxxxxxxx, Kxxx, x but bid 4♥ even if 4♣ was natural.

Yes It was rude but what can you do but put him/her on block and hope you don't come across them again

thanks for the answer, as I suspected really

[mgoetze]

eagles123, on 2013-January-03, 10:32, said:

bidding went he opened 1♠ i responded 1NT he then went 4♣ at which point I presumed gerber

A very dangerous habit, if I may say so.

[Phil]

eagles123, on 2013-January-03, 10:32, said:

Sorry for bombarding the forum with questions, but looking to learn so here goes

Uh, if anything we don't get enough threads started here.

There are no stupid questions in the NB forum. You might get quick and simple answers, but thats OK.

There are plenty of stupid questions in the Expert forum. And even more stupid answers

[hrothgar]

Here's a somewhat convoluted answer to your question.

The auction

1♠ - 1NT
3♣

Is typically played as a game forcing bid. It normally shows a two suited hand with at least 5 Spades and at least 4 Clubs (However, partner might chose to "fake" this bid with fewer Clubs. I seem to recall bidding 3♣ opposite JLol holding a 7=2=2=2)

The meaning of a 4♣ rebid varies. However, the one thing it doesn't show is game forcing 5-5 with more points.

1. As noted above, a 3♣ rebid would establish a game force. Showing extra strength really isn't that useful a treatment
2. The 4♣ rebid bypasses 3NT which could very well be a playable strain

Undiscussed, I'd expect that the 4♣ bid was some kind of self splinter. Partner has a strong Spade suit (playable opposite xx in your hand) and a singleton or void in Clubs. Something like the following seems typical

♠ AKJTxxx
♥ Kx
♦AKx
♣ x

Anyone recommending a 4♣ rebid with your hand is a looney...

[eagles123]

mgoetze, on 2013-January-03, 12:10, said:

A very dangerous habit, if I may say so.

to be honest I have to presume something - I can't just ask my P for any explanation there and then?

[Cyberyeti]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-03, 13:10, said:

Here's a somewhat convoluted answer to your question.

The auction

1♠ - 1NT
3♣

Is typically played as a game forcing bid. It normally shows a two suited hand with at least 5 Spades and at least 4 Clubs (However, partner might chose to "fake" this bid with fewer Clubs. I seem to recall bidding 3♣ opposite JLol holding a 7=2=2=2)

The meaning of a 4♣ rebid varies. However, the one thing it doesn't show is game forcing 5-5 with more points.

1. As noted above, a 3♣ rebid would establish a game force. Showing extra strength really isn't that useful a treatment
2. The 4♣ rebid bypasses 3NT which could very well be a playable strain

Undiscussed, I'd expect that the 4♣ bid was some kind of self splinter. Partner has a strong Spade suit (playable opposite xx in your hand) and a singleton or void in Clubs. Something like the following seems typical

♠ AKJTxxx
♥ Kx
♦AKx
♣ x

Anyone recommending a 4♣ rebid with your hand is a looney...

Totally agree, but to a beginner:

KQJ10xx
void
Q
KQJ10xx

or similar with no interest in 3N or defence and huge playing strength is also plausible.

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-03, 13:46, said:

Totally agree, but to a beginner:

KQJ10xx
void
Q
KQJ10xx

or similar with no interest in 3N or defence and huge playing strength is also plausible.

My P listed himself as "Advanced"

[RunemPard]

eagles123, on 2013-January-03, 13:55, said:

My P listed himself as "Advanced"

Liar, liar..pants on fire!

[mgoetze]

eagles123, on 2013-January-03, 13:29, said:

to be honest I have to presume something - I can't just ask my P for any explanation there and then?

Why not?

[eagles123]

RunemPard, on 2013-January-03, 14:49, said:

Liar, liar..pants on fire!

he came up with the brilliant line when we were "discussing" it afterwards

"I wonder why I'm advanced and your only intermediate" - I consider myself intermediate by BBO standards, Beginner by real standards btw

[Cascade]

1. I concur with others who have suggested that asking questions is a good way to learn.

2. Your partner should realize that a 4♣ bid is likely to be unclear in a pick-up partnership.

3. Nevertheless sometimes partners throw you curve balls that you just have to work out the best that you can. Sometimes you will guess well other times not so well. An understanding partner will realise this and not get bent out of shape when you misinterpret something, especially something undiscussed and unusual.

4. Leaving the table mid-hand should not be an acceptable practice full-stop. Bridge partners make mistakes. Everyone has to learn to deal with that.

5. I would say that standard is for 3♣ to be game-forcing.

6. There are probably a significant minority who play 3♣ as just a one-round force. But its still forcing.

7. Nevertheless some may still play that 4♣ is stronger and more distributional. Often in my experience this will be because they have not thought of any alternative possible uses for the bid.

8. Its not possible to discuss every single auction so these sort of problems will recur, even for quite experienced partnerships.

9. Experienced partnerships develop so-called 'meta-agreements' which they use to help work out meanings in unusual auctions. In this case others have mentioned that 4♣ maybe played as a self-splinter. This agreement could be based on an explicit discussion or it could be based on a meta-agreement that might look something like "Whenever a bid is one-level above a natural forcing bid then it is a splinter". The meta-agreement could have some exceptions for example obviously when it is in a suit already bid or maybe when it is at the game level. In this case because partner has not bid a suit then a splinter can only be a self-splinter for spades. This isn't the only agreement or meta-agreement for 4♣. It would also be perfectly valid to have a meta-agreement that anything undiscussed is natural. Clearly though meta-agreements are not likely to be helpful in a pick-up partnership and one is usually best to avoid anything that could be construed as ambiguous.

[SimonFa]

eagles123, on 2013-January-03, 13:55, said:

My P listed himself as "Advanced"

Don't take too much notice of how people rate themselves. I recently made a reverse that was passed out by an "advanced" player and we missed a slam, playing instead in a 4-2 trump suit at the 2 level.

Unless a persons profile says they play Gerber its safest to assume that they don't. Its a gadget that isn't really in fashion nowadays except among older Acol players here in UK. If this mid was made in MBC and not a tourney its OK to ask, especially with a new pick-up partners and if one of the ops complains (its only happened a couple of times to me and the complainers are on my enemy list) politely tell them that you're a pickup partnership and that it aids a much better game all round.

Simon