[straube]

You are South and third seat. V vs NV. Uncontested auction. Some may open or preempt the North hand...


.....................Q
.....................A653
.....................KQT94
.....................854
J743...................................86
T98....................................J72
85......................................7632
A762..................................KJ93
.....................AKT952
.....................KQ4
.....................AJ
.....................QT


Outcomes

4S N SCREAM
4S S New Big Club
4S S OCP
4S S Polish Club

4S S IMprecision (North opens 1D)
4S S Malfoir (North opens 1D)
4H N Jasmine Club (North opens 2H)
4S S Moscito (North opens 1D)
4S S Silent Club (North opens 1D)
4S N Zelandakh (North opens 1D)
4S S Precision by Free (North opens 1D)
4S S relknes (North opens 1D)
4S S Meckwell Light (North opens 1D)

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-24, 01:02, said:

.....................Q
.....................A653
.....................KQT94
.....................854
J743...................................86
T98....................................J72
85......................................7632
A762..................................KJ93
.....................AKT952
.....................KQ4
.....................AJ
.....................QT

SCREAM will use its 3/4 seat structure...

.......P
1C-2S 16+, GF 4H/5+D
2N-3C ask, higher short
3D-3H ask, 1453
4D-4H puppet terminator, forced
4S

Four spades won't always be right, but I think I'd rather be in spades with AKT952 opposite a hand that may not have help in clubs.

[JLOGIC]

1C 1H (strong, 8-10 no 5cM or 6cm)
1S 2D
2S 2N
3N

Arguably south could bid 3H (which would not show 4 hearts, similar to 1S 2D 2S 2N 3H because south would bid 2H with 3H), or 3D (AJ doubleton!) but in reality QT of clubs is good enough where south would just bid 3N IMO, with 2 small clubs he would def bid 3H or maybe 3D.

Not very good but thats how I'd bid irl, QT being worth nothing sucks.

[JLOGIC]

Also FWIW I would open the N hand. If north opened it would go

1D 1S
1N 4S

If following very strict meckwell style of not rebidding 1N with a stiff it would go

1D 1S
2C 2H
3H 3N

I imagine even meckwell would rebid 1N with this hand rather than 2C which might be 4-5 in the minors though.

[relknes]

straube, on 2013-January-24, 01:02, said:

You are South and third seat. V vs NV. Uncontested auction. Some may open or preempt the North hand...


.....................Q
.....................A653
.....................KQT94
.....................854
J743...................................86
T98....................................J72
85......................................7632
A762..................................KJ93
.....................AKT952
.....................KQ4
.....................AJ
.....................QT

The north hand is actually a 1♦ opener for us.

1♦ - 1♠
1N - 2♦
3♦ - 4♠

Translation:
N: 10-15 points, 5-8 losers, 4 card major (4-4 majors if balanced), S: 4+ spades
N: 10-12 points, 4 hearts and a longer minor (or possibly 1-4-4-4), S: Artificial GF
N: denies 3 spades, denies having both minors stopped, 5+ diamonds, S: to play


But if South were second seat, we would bid:
1♣ - 2♦
2♠ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
4♠

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 5+ diamonds, unbalanced, 9+
S: 4+ spades, N: 4+ hearts
S: 6+ spades, N: denies 2+ spades, denies a club stopper, denies 6+ diaonds, denies 5+ hearts (thus either 1-4-5-3 or very rarely 0-4-5-4 with very poor clubs)
S: signoff

akward auction for us if north passes, though we seem to get to the same spot. North's hand is the worst possible shape for our methods, and the hands don't fit very well. Strong misfit hands are the trouble group for our system.

[Free]

1♦-1♠ (11-15 2+♦ ; (3)4+♠)
1NT-3♠ (11-13 bal ; GF 6+♠, sets trumps)
3NT-4♠ (frivolous ; ok then)

If you really want a 3rd seat opening:
pass-1♣ (they held a shotgun to my head ; 16+ any)
2♦-2♠ (GF unbal 5+♦ ; 5+♠)
2NT-3♠ (4♥ ; 6+♠)
4♠-pass (with a stiff top honor I usually prefer a 6-1 fit)

[Free]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-24, 01:20, said:

Also FWIW I would open the N hand. If north opened it would go

1D 1S
1N 4S

No slam interest with the South hand?

[Zelandakh]

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
1♠ = min, <4 spades unless 4441/4450
... - 1NT = GF relay
2♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 hearts (and not 3-suited)
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = 5 diamonds
... - 3♣ = relay
3♦ = 1453
... - 3♠ = asks for club stop
4♣ = no club stop
... - 4♠


Interestingly enough, if South (or East) were dealer (to force a 1♣ opening) then the auction is somewhat similar in relay terms

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 2♣ = hearts and diamonds, GF (not 3-suited)
2♦ = relay, usually 18+
... - 2♥ = 4 hearts
2♠ = relay
... - 2NT = 5 diamonds
3♣ = relay
... - 3♦ = 1453
3♠ = asks for club stop
... - 4♣ = no club stop, min
4♠

Obviously I would prefer this since South gets to declare but the North hand is a clear opener so put me down for 4♠(N). You can add a note that the defence is DD if you like (even worse than your auction for this).

[rbforster]

Silent Club:

Tough one. We open North for sure:

1♦-1♠ 4+ unbal 9-15; natural 4+ (no strong JS available)
2♦-3♣ 4♥/5+♦ NF; 4th suit GF
3♦-3♠ punt, could be 6th diamond; tends to be 6 spades here, since opener would raise initially with 3451 shape
4♠-P stiff honor and no stop; give up?

Hard not to try for slam here as South, maybe with 4N (RKC) or a 5♦ cue, either going down. At the table, I think I'd probably bid on (5♦-5♠-P) since until Norths final bid his hand hasn't been limited (give Qx♠ and a club honor, possibly without Q♦, and 6-7 is on). On reflection I think maybe passing is right though, since with a max and a club card, North can bid 4♣ to agree spades, so in that context 4♠ should be somewhat discouraging (and of course there is the possibility of a no fit auction). Another negative inference about 4♠ is that when it's made without a true fit, like here, it's because opener lacks a club stop for a superior 3N call. On this hand, given all the South honors, any hand missing both club honors is a min hand without enough values for slam.

If we pass, there's still a lot of possibilities depending on South's hand valuation since its on the edge of our roughly 16-18/19-21 range split. I think I'd probably take the low road (treat as 18 count with all those short suit minor honors):

P-1♣ (forgot to open); strong
1♦-1♥ most 0-7, some heart GFs; art min, bal or one suited
2♦-2♥ GF with ♦>♥; relay
2♠-2N short spades; relay
3♦-3♥ 1453; relay
3N-P 7 QP; game (not enough opposite no fit)

At least clubs are breaking since we couldnt check for stoppers. Here's the high road:

P-1♣ (forgot to open); strong
1♦-2♠ most 0-7, some heart GFs; 5+ natural 19-21ish
3♦-3♠ natural GF; 6th spade
4♠-P

At least in this case responder knows opener's strength range and is able to pick either 3N or 4♠ without worrying about missing a likely slam.

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

North will pass, so the auction will be:
pass - 1♣
1♦ - 1♠
2♦ - 2♠
3♥ - 3♠
4♠

Explanation:
1♣ = 16+ (Not a balanced 16-20)
1♦ = relay, denying several weak one or two suited hands with 0-7 HCP
1♠ = 16+, 5+card ♠, unbalanced, non forcing
2♦ = GF, 5+-card ♦
2♠ = 6+-card ♠, not a 4-card ♥, may have support in ♦
3♥ = stopper in ♥, not a stopper in ♣
3♠ = not a stopper in ♣
4♠ = well let's play in 4♠

Jan

[Zelandakh]

Jan, how would your North bid with a GF hand of 5 hearts and 6 diamonds? (0562 or 1561) Are you forced to bid hearts first (over 1♠) or does your system have a mechanism for showing an extreme 2-suiter?

[hrothgar]

The North hand is a clear opening hand playing MOSCITO


1♦ - 1♥ 1♦ = 4+ Hearts
1N - 2♣ 1N = Balanced or unablanced with 4 Hearts
2♥ - 2♠ 2♥ = 4 Hearts and longer Diamonds
2N - 3♣ 2N = High Shortage
3♦ - 3♥ 3♦ = 1=4=5=3 shape
3♠ - 4♠ 3S = 6 QPs (Stiff Queen of Spades does not count)

<Corrected after a helpful catch by rforester>

[rbforster]

Following the relay auction, isn't South asking with 3♥, so 3♠ is the answer with 6 QPs (rather than 3N which you give in the description)? If so, how is responder/relayer deciding on 3N vs 4♠? I would have thought opener would just pass 3N.

[hrothgar]

rbforster, on 2013-January-24, 08:20, said:

Following the relay auction, isn't South asking with 3♥, so 3♠ is the answer with 6 QPs (rather than 3N which you give in the description)? If so, how is responder/relayer deciding on 3N vs 4♠? I would have thought opener would just pass 3N.

You're quite right

3♠ shows slam points, after which South will simply bid 4♠

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2013-January-24, 01:02, said:

You are South and third seat. V vs NV. Uncontested auction. Some may open or preempt the North hand...


.....................Q
.....................A653
.....................KQT94
.....................854
J743...................................86
T98....................................J72
85......................................7632
A762..................................KJ93
.....................AKT952
.....................KQ4
.....................AJ
.....................QT

Playing Pass 2000 (my forcing pass system)
North will open:
1D (4+ hearts, 8-11 hcp) - 1H (relay);
2D (natural canapé) - 2H (GF relay);
2S-2N;
3C (1-4-5-3).

Then its basically a choice between 4M or 3NT. I would probably bid 4S, being afraid of the 3-2 clubs and preferring a 6-1 fit to a 4-3 fit (even if I have great values in hearts).

[Hilver]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-24, 07:23, said:

Jan, how would your North bid with a GF hand of 5 hearts and 6 diamonds? (0562 or 1561) Are you forced to bid hearts first (over 1♠) or does your system have a mechanism for showing an extreme 2-suiter?

With 5 hearts and 6 diamonds we prefer bidding hearts first. In HK we do not have a specific bid for a holding You mentioned. Our priority is always in the majors.
If You hold for example:
♠ -
♥ K Q J x x
♦ K Q J x x x
♣ x x

The bidding then might be:
1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♦
3♠ - 4♦

Explanation:
1♦ = relay
2♥ = GF, 5+ ♥
3♦ = 4+ ♦
4♦ = 5+ ♦

Jan

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, on 2013-January-24, 08:32, said:

Then its basically a choice between 4M or 3NT.

This seems to be the whole crux of the hand really, no? If, like me, you assign relay breaks to stop asks then it hurts your slam bidding but pays dividends on hands like this where otherwise you would be guessing. What I am looking to see, and I suspect straube would also appreciate it, is the logic behind why you make one decision over the other. Obviously AKT9xx is a very good suit and playable opposite a singleton. On the other hand, if North had great clubs (AKx?) then 3NT would look more appealing. Anyone have an alternative solution to this?

[Free]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-24, 07:24, said:

The North hand is a clear opening hand playing MOSCITO


1♦ - 1♥ 1♦ = 4+ Hearts
1N - 2♣ 1N = Balanced or unablanced with 4 Hearts
2♥ - 2♠ 2♥ = 4 Hearts and longer Diamonds
2N - 3♣ 2N = High Shortage
3♦ - 3♥ 3♦ = 1=4=5=3 shape
3♠ - 4♠ 3S = 6 QPs (Stiff Queen of Spades does not count)

<Corrected after a helpful catch by rforester>

FYI, newer MOSCITO versions start:
1♦-1♥ (unbal 4+♥ ; relay, either GF or any balanced hand)
1NT-2♦ (4♥ with longer m ; GF relay)
2NT-3♣ (4♥, 5+♦, short ♠ ; rest like your auction)
...

[FM75]

OCP


p - 1♣
2♦ - 2♥ pos, control ask
2N - 3♠ has AK, trump fit?
4♣ - 4♠ has bare Q or xx

or

p - 1♣
2♦ - 2♠ pos, trump ask
2N - 3♠ not Qxx, or xxxx, repeat trump ask
4♣ - 4♠ bare Q or xx

Interesting that both sequences pass 3N with singleton spade.
I would generally choose the first for the cheaper control ask.
Looked at the other alternative to see where it would go.

[JLOGIC]

Free, on 2013-January-24, 01:59, said:

No slam interest with the South hand?

Sorry I was super drunk last night. Thought south had 16. Let me try again.

1D 1S
1N 2D (11-13, art GF denying 4 hearts)
2S 2N (5 card minor w/o 3S, asking)
3D 3S (diamonds, 6+ spades slam try)
3N 4D (non serious, cuebid)
4S p (south denied a club control so north bids 4S, would bid 4H with a club control)

North cannot get out of spades after rebidding 1N when partner shows 6 spades since the 1N rebid almost never contains a stiff. Perhaps they should bid 4S over 3S and not even non serious, but they do have pretty slam suitable cards.