[barsikb]

Dealer: South
Vul: Both

---

I would probably not open 2♠ as a South because Spades quality is not so good.
But if South did open 2♠ as a North I would bid 7♠ since my partner wouldn't open 2♠ without any of top three honors.

If West opened bidding with 2♥ as a North I'd double. East would probably jump to 4♥ after which South would bid 4♠. What is next? 5♥ by North? Could it be Voidwood? If it could South shall bid 5NT to show 1 keycard and North go to 7S knowing that partner holds King of trumps.

Does this all make sense?

How would bidding go if E/W didn't bid at all? What if North was the dealer?

[Zelandakh]

Opening preempts is always a matter of style. Some pairs do have suit quality requirements, some not. In any case, if South does open 2♠ then I think North should check key cards on the way to grand to make sure that South does not hold ♥A, just in case 7NT makes and 7♠ goes down on a club ruff.

In the auction where West opens, 5♥ is not Voidwood since space is too limited for this. It is also not a convention recommended for N/B players. To be honest, I think I would simply bid 7♠ over 4♠ if playing with a N/B level partner, trusting that the king was held. A more sophisticated approach might be to bid 6♥ here but you need some agreements in auctions like this to get things right.

If both South and West were to pass, then North will open 2♣. Playing a traditional style of responses, South would bid 2♠ now and we are back to a similar spot as after a 2♠ opening, deciding between 7♠ and 7NT. If South requires something like 2 of the top 3 for a positive response, or if a 2♦ response shows a positive, then the bidding might begin: 2♣ - 2♦; 3♣ - 3♠. Now Opener has to show the extras and spade fit. The only bid I can think of to do this is 5♥. After this, South can drive to 7♠, either directly or via 6♦ - 6♥, if that will not be misunderstood. You could also agree to play the 5♥ jump as Voidwood of course (but again, not with an N/B partner!), in which case you reach 7♠ with North making the drive.

As you can probably tell, these auctions are a little difficult to give because they involve conventions which are played in different ways. Hopefully, I have managed to include your own style somewhere in the response.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♠-5N(GSF) if you don't play 5♥ voidwood.

[mitsguy]

I'm a complete newbie, and am trying to understand how the strong auctions work. For now, let's focus on north / south, and ignore the competitive aspects for now, so I can better understand the strong auctions.

North will open 2♣, the strong 2♣.

South will probably respond 2♦, since even though he has more than 7 points and 6 spades, the spades aren't that strong.

North will then bid 3♣, since clubs are his longest suit.

South doesn't have a fit for clubs, but has a reasonable hand and a decent spade suit, so he'll probably bid 2♠ next.

North has a fit for spades, so he'll probably raise to 3♠.

After that, I don't know. How does sounds know how strong north is? Obviously, the belong in at least game. But would 4♠ be seen as a signoff? I see nothing about south's hand that would suggest slam. But let's say that south wants to gamble, and bids 4NT, Blackwood.

How does north respond to show 3 aces and a void? I know to show 1 ace and a void you bid your void suit at the 6 level if the void is lower ranking than the trump suit, or bid the trump suit at the 6 level to show a void higher ranking than the trump suit. I know that to show 2 aces and a void you bid 5NT. But I have no idea how to show 3 aces and a void. Do you just ignore the void? Or is there a way to show it?

Realistically, I doubt that south would bid blackwood anyway. South has no first round control to cuebid. Should south just raise to 4♠? Would that be a signoff? Or should south cuebid 4♦ to show the K♦? What would north do next?

Let's say south bids 4♠ and it's not a forceoff. North has a first round control in every suit, but cannot bid Blackwood since he has a void. North is mostly interested in finding out if south has the K♦ and K♠. A cuebidding sequence can locate the K♦, but I'm not 100% sure how. But what about the K♠? North can't bid the grand slam force either, since he has 2 of the top 3 honors in spades. Even if you play RKCB, north can't bid that either, with a void in hearts.

Again, I'm just asking about really simple, newbie techniques. Not complicated things like "voidwood".

The other possible fork would be if after north opens 2♣ if south bids 2♠. I'm guessing north would raise to 3♠, and then we are back where we were above.

Thanks.

[awm]

If south opens 2♠, north can basically just bid 7♠ since he can see 6 spade tricks and 7 club tricks and has every suit controlled. South should have ♠K for his weak two bid given he lacks the ace and queen (and ten, for that matter).

If west opens 2♥, north doubles and east bids 4♥. Then south bids 4♠. North could basically guess 7♠ now, but ideally he might want a way to check for the spade king. Typically 5NT (the poorly-named "grand slam force") would say "I want to bid a grand if you have good trumps" which works here.

If north opens 2♣, I really like a 2♠ response by south. The sixth spade makes up for a lot in terms of suit quality here. After the 2♠ response north can just bid a grand once again (since 2♠ promises a decent suit). If south decides to bid 2♦, north rebids 3♣ and south bids 3♠ over that. Now 4♠ is far too little with the north hand; after all king-fifth of spades is an ice-cold grand slam and a small slam will make even opposite five small spades with a bit of luck. Over 3♠ north could try 5NT as before. It's also possible that a jump to 5♥ over 3♠ would be shortness (either exclusion keycard or just void showing). Or north could just blast 6♠ and south could bid 7♠ since he has a lot more than he showed.

[barsikb]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-22, 08:01, said:

In the auction where West opens, 5♥ is not Voidwood since space is too limited for this.

What would that be in this bidding sequence?

[barsikb]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-22, 08:37, said:

2♣-2♠-5N(GSF) if you don't play 5♥ voidwood.

I do try to use Voidwood even though don't do it correctly from time to time.

5NT would aslk partner to choose between 6S and 7S, right? What exactly is needed to bid GS?

[barsikb]

awm, this was closest to what I know and understand by now re this hand. Thank you

[Cyberyeti]

barsikb, on 2013-February-23, 08:24, said:

I do try to use Voidwood even though don't do it correctly from time to time.

5NT would ask partner to choose between 6S and 7S, right? What exactly is needed to bid GS?

5NT asks partner to look at his trumps only. There are several schemes of responses, one is:

6♣ - no top honour
6♦ - Q
6♥ - K or A
6♠ - K or A and extra length
7♠ - 2 of AKQ

[mitsguy]

Does anyone have any answers to my questions? Thank you.

[fromageGB]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-23, 11:51, said:

Does anyone have any answers to my questions? Thank you.

No. The questions are multitudinous, and are not clear. It is a complex situation, and sometimes bidding sequences are impossible to handle unless you have suitably complex (non-beginner) methods. You just have to guess, and punt.

"simple, newbie techniques" that you ask for probably do not exist.

This is part of the exciting bridge development process. "I can't handle this, let's learn something new". You can't read the Iliad after a one day course in Greek.

[awm]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-22, 21:19, said:

I'm a complete newbie, and am trying to understand how the strong auctions work. For now, let's focus on north / south, and ignore the competitive aspects for now, so I can better understand the strong auctions.

North will open 2♣, the strong 2♣.

South will probably respond 2♦, since even though he has more than 7 points and 6 spades, the spades aren't that strong.

The 2♠ response normally shows five spades to two top honors. However, the sixth spade is really valuable and I would rather have king-sixth than king-queen-fifth most of the time. I think bidding 2♠ here is a good choice for south. But not everyone will agree; 2♦ is okay too.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-22, 21:19, said:

North will then bid 3♣, since clubs are his longest suit.

South doesn't have a fit for clubs, but has a reasonable hand and a decent spade suit, so he'll probably bid 2♠ next.

After north's 3♣ bid, south must bid at the three-level. He will bid 3♠ next.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-22, 21:19, said:

North has a fit for spades, so he'll probably raise to 3♠.

After that, I don't know. How does sounds know how strong north is? Obviously, the belong in at least game. But would 4♠ be seen as a signoff? I see nothing about south's hand that would suggest slam. But let's say that south wants to gamble, and bids 4NT, Blackwood.

After hearing 3♠ from south, north knows slam is pretty likely. If south has king-fifth of spades then we will make seven. So north cannot bid 4♠. He must bid something more. A simple choice would be 6♠, which can make even opposite five small spades with a little luck. Another option is to bid 5NT ("grand slam force") which is asking south to bid 7♠ with good trumps. Good trumps in this context should be "a top trump honor" since two top trump honors seem too much to hope for given the bidding.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-22, 21:19, said:

How does north respond to show 3 aces and a void? I know to show 1 ace and a void you bid your void suit at the 6 level if the void is lower ranking than the trump suit, or bid the trump suit at the 6 level to show a void higher ranking than the trump suit. I know that to show 2 aces and a void you bid 5NT. But I have no idea how to show 3 aces and a void. Do you just ignore the void? Or is there a way to show it?

The usual agreement I've seen is that you bid your suit at the 6-level to show an odd number of aces with a void. Usually partner can tell between one and three from his hand and the auction. Here a jump to 6♥ over blackwood is "one or three aces with a void in heart" but remember north opened a strong 2♣... it will be three aces and not one considering.

mitsguy, on 2013-February-22, 21:19, said:

Realistically, I doubt that south would bid blackwood anyway. South has no first round control to cuebid. Should south just raise to 4♠? Would that be a signoff? Or should south cuebid 4♦ to show the K♦? What would north do next?

Let's say south bids 4♠ and it's not a forceoff. North has a first round control in every suit, but cannot bid Blackwood since he has a void. North is mostly interested in finding out if south has the K♦ and K♠. A cuebidding sequence can locate the K♦, but I'm not 100% sure how. But what about the K♠? North can't bid the grand slam force either, since he has 2 of the top 3 honors in spades. Even if you play RKCB, north can't bid that either, with a void in hearts.

If south has to somehow find a bid over 4♠, then the 5♦ cue is ideal. Of course, north "signing off" in 4♠ seems unlikely in any reasonable auction.

Grand slam force must be interpreted in context. It's just "bid a grand if you have good trumps." Here, south could have a pretty weak hand and didn't respond 2♠ to 2♣. If you need two top honors from south to bid grand, there's no point in looking. South can always bid grand on his own if he has a huge amount more than he showed. So 5NT in this context should be asking for one top honor.

[mitsguy]

Thanks, AWM. You're right, I should have said that north would bid 3♠ over a 3♣ bid by south.

Anyway, if north opens 2♣, let's say that south bids 2♠ as you suggest. North will probably raise to 3♠ to show spade support. Now what? How does south know whether to sign off in 4♠ (which would be a mistake), or to bid blackwood, which would be dangerous with a weak hand and not even a single ace? South can't cuebid either, with no first round control in any suit? I'm lost, to be honst.

Let's say that south bids 2♦ instead. North will bid 3♣, and south will bid 3♠. You suggested that north just jump all the way to 6♠. Isn't that dangerous without the king of trumps? Even if you use RKCB, it won't help, since north has a void. You also suggested 5NT, grand slam force. Having only one of the top 3 honors (and no real way to know that north has 2 of the top 3 honors), south will probably bid 6♠. But that still doesn't tell whether or not south has the king of trumps. I'm guessing that north should cuebid 4♣ to show the A♣. Would south then just retreat to 4♠? If so, then north would probably bid 5♦ to show the A♦. The auction is now too high for south to use Blackwood. South will probably bid 5♠, probably ending the auction.

Obivously, I am missing something. What am I missing? Again, I'm just talking about simple methods. Since this is the novice / beginner forum, I feel it is reasonable for me to ask these questions.

Thanks again.

[Cyberyeti]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-23, 14:11, said:

Thanks, AWM. You're right, I should have said that north would bid 3♠ over a 3♣ bid by south.

Anyway, if north opens 2♣, let's say that south bids 2♠ as you suggest. North will probably raise to 3♠ to show spade support. Now what? How does south know whether to sign off in 4♠ (which would be a mistake), or to bid blackwood, which would be dangerous with a weak hand and not even a single ace? South can't cuebid either, with no first round control in any suit? I'm lost, to be honst.

Once south bids 2♠, he can sign off as many times as he likes, N is not stopping below 6♠ and probably not below 7. ♠Kxxxx and out is 13 tricks.

Quote

Let's say that south bids 2♦ instead. North will bid 3♣, and south will bid 3♠. You suggested that north just jump all the way to 6♠. Isn't that dangerous without the king of trumps? Even if you use RKCB, it won't help, since north has a void. You also suggested 5NT, grand slam force. Having only one of the top 3 honors (and no real way to know that north has 2 of the top 3 honors), south will probably bid 6♠. But that still doesn't tell whether or not south has the king of trumps. I'm guessing that north should cuebid 4♣ to show the A♣. Would south then just retreat to 4♠? If so, then north would probably bid 5♦ to show the A♦. The auction is now too high for south to use Blackwood. South will probably bid 5♠, probably ending the auction.

Obivously, I am missing something. What am I missing? Again, I'm just talking about simple methods. Since this is the novice / beginner forum, I feel it is reasonable for me to ask these questions.

Thanks again.

Many people play 2♣-2♦-3♣-3♠ shows some values as they have a 2nd negative available. There is also a maxim here than you "don't bid bad suits on good hands" so xxxx is not in the frame. I would just bid 5♥ (voidwood) or 5N (GSF) over 3♠ with the N hand.

[awm]

The main thing you are missing here is that the context of the auction is important. There are several ways this makes a difference:

(1) What should south do after 2♣-2♠-3♠? This hand is really great opposite a strong 2♣ opening and a fit. South should cuebid 4♣. Many modern players will cuebid second round controls freely, but even if this is not your style you should be willing to cuebid a second round control in some situations. Here you have a super-promising hand for slam but partner knows not to expect much in the way of values (he has the big hand after all). The second round diamond control is all north needs to know! This is different (perhaps) from cuebidding a second round control as a strong hand, where it might be a disappointment.

(2) How should north respond to blackwood? Again, you have to remember north has shown a rock-crusher by opening 2♣. He cannot have "one ace." In fact he has every first round control! A jump to 6♥ here doesn't show "one ace and a void in hearts" -- it's context dependent and shows an odd number of aces. South will virtually always know which.

(3) What does south need to accept a 5NT "grand slam force" bid after responding 2♦ initially? Since south has so-far shown nothing in values, for north to bid 5NT missing two top trump honors is asking to go down in six a significant proportion of the time. To look for a grand opposite a hand that hasn't shown any points, north has to really have things locked up. He won't be missing two cards -- what if south has neither? Then even six would be too high! He should be missing only one card in this auction, and south has that card (the spade king). Again, in an auction where the weaker hand is bidding grand slam force he could easily be looking for two (or even three!) trump honors for the grand. But here the hand asking is a rock-crusher and the hand answering denied the strength/trumps to bid 2♠ initially. He can't need two cards.

[mitsguy]

Thanks, Cyberyeti and Awm for your help. I'm still not sure how the auction would go if South bids 2♦. We agree north would then bid 3♣ and then south would bid 3♠. How can north then show support for spades? It seems north can't raise to 4♠ since that would be a signoff. 5♠ would get you too high for Blackwood. And there is no way to cuebid, since you haven't yet agreed to spades as trump, so a new suit bid would appear as if you don't have spade support and are trying to choose a new trump suit. So, is 5NT, grand slam force the only option, and South would just assume Spades are the trump suit since it was the last suit mentioned?

If South bids 2♠, then I assume the auction would go something like:

North - South
2♣ - 2♠
3♠ - 4♦
5NT - 7♠ (or 6♠ if south follows the letter of the law)

[barsikb]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-23, 10:13, said:

5NT asks partner to look at his trumps only. There are several schemes of responses, one is:

6♣ - no top honour
6♦ - Q
6♥ - K or A
6♠ - K or A and extra length
7♠ - 2 of AKQ

Thank you!

In this case 6♠?

awm: "Another option is to bid 5NT ("grand slam force") which is asking south to bid 7♠ with good trumps. Good trumps in this context should be "a top trump honor" since two top trump honors seem too much to hope for given the bidding."

Looks like 7S? I guess that would depend on the partnership bidding style?

[wyman]

GSF is not a n/b convention and takes detailed discussion w partner, but as many point out, it does the job here.

Mits: the problems after 2c-2d-3c are part of the reason south may want to bid 2s right away. It's hard to play catch-up. 6s is not dangerous after 2c-2d-3c-3s because missing the trump king is the only worry. A diamond lead might be problematic, but opps need to find it, which might be hard here. Plus south may have the king of diamonds, the spade king may drop, or north's clubs may take care of south's diamonds, or south might have the heart king and opps lead the heart ace so the HK can take care of north's losing diamond. Or -- pretty likely -- south can have the SK and we make 7.

Playing in a new partnership or even in some not-so-new partnerships, I'd just bid 6s.

[PhilG007]

barsikb, on 2013-February-22, 07:30, said:

Dealer: South
Vul: Both

---

I would probably not open 2♠ as a South because Spades quality is not so good.
But if South did open 2♠ as a North I would bid 7♠ since my partner wouldn't open 2♠ without any of top three honors.

If West opened bidding with 2♥ as a North I'd double. East would probably jump to 4♥ after which South would bid 4♠. What is next? 5♥ by North? Could it be Voidwood? If it could South shall bid 5NT to show 1 keycard and North go to 7S knowing that partner holds King of trumps.

Does this all make sense?

How would bidding go if E/W didn't bid at all? What if North was the dealer?

I would open 2S on the South hand. In my experience it pays to get in the bidding if I own the Spades.
Spades are the emperor of the suits,always keeping you one step ahead of the opposition.
I would suggest this bidding sequence:-

South North
2S 3C (forcing)
3D 4NT (Roman Keycard Blackwood for spades)
5D(1 or 4) 7S
Pass

Using simple Blackwood makes reaching the slam difficult as the trump King doesnt
count in the 4NT bid which essentially asks for Aces alone.

[mitsguy]

wyman, on 2013-February-24, 07:47, said:

GSF is not a n/b convention and takes detailed discussion w partner, but as many point out, it does the job here.

Mits: the problems after 2c-2d-3c are part of the reason south may want to bid 2s right away. It's hard to play catch-up.

I thought that in order to make a positive response like 2♠, you needed at least 3 of the top 5 honors. Or is any 6 card suit ok?

Quote

6s is not dangerous after 2c-2d-3c-3s because missing the trump king is the only worry. A diamond lead might be problematic, but opps need to find it, which might be hard here. Plus south may have the king of diamonds, the spade king may drop, or north's clubs may take care of south's diamonds, or south might have the heart king and opps lead the heart ace so the HK can take care of north's losing diamond. Or -- pretty likely -- south can have the SK and we make 7.

Playing in a new partnership or even in some not-so-new partnerships, I'd just bid 6s.

I guess the logic is that if south doesn't have the K♠, you will almost certainly lose a spade trick, but probably won't lose anything else.