[Fluffy]

---

After the heart lead declarer ruffs in dummy and claims saying that he will draw trumps.

[Lord Molyb]

If he draws all of his trumps from the top he'll lose a trump, a ruff, and eventually 4 hearts, so down 5.
If trumps were 4-1 he'd make 6 with his stated line.

[sfi]

Lord Molyb, on 2013-June-22, 16:15, said:

If he draws all of his trumps from the top he'll lose a trump, a ruff, and eventually 4 hearts, so down 5.
If trumps were 4-1 he'd make 6 with his stated line.

It's not logical to assume he's going to continue on this path once North shows out on the first trump (or second trump, for that matter). Even with the claim, there is some recognition that declarer will take the marked finesse.

[blackshoe]

It would be nuts for declarer to do anything other than grab his four trump tricks, and then play on diamonds and clubs. South can take his trump whenever he likes, but that's the only trick he gets. Unless we impose a line of play involving baring the heart suit before playing on the minors. I don't think that's "normal play". So making six.

[Lord Molyb]

sfi, on 2013-June-22, 17:46, said:

It's not logical to assume he's going to continue on this path once North shows out on the first trump (or second trump, for that matter). Even with the claim, there is some recognition that declarer will take the marked finesse.

It's not logical to assume he's going to continue on this hand once North leads on the first trick (or discards on the trump, for that matter). Even with the dummy, there is some possibility that declarer will take the wrong line.

[Lord Molyb]

Actually, you're right, I'm just not experienced with this subject.

[Hanoi5]

I misvoted. 6 Spades made and 6 Spades +1.

[blackshoe]

If the finesse were not marked, I'd give South two trump tricks. It is marked, though, as soon as North shows out on the first round.

[Cyberyeti]

You are not required to do something really stupid, once the finesse is marked it's careless but not ridiculous to fail to unblock 10♠ in dummy in the 4-1 case, so if there's any possibility of using the wrong entries for transport between the hands and suffer a ruff, you might rule against declarer on that, but here I don't see any chance of that. 6♠=/+1 in the 2 cases.

[iviehoff]

blackshoe, on 2013-June-22, 18:39, said:

It would be nuts for declarer to do anything other than grab his four trump tricks, and then play on diamonds and clubs. South can take his trump whenever he likes, but that's the only trick he gets. Unless we impose a line of play involving baring the heart suit before playing on the minors. I don't think that's "normal play". So making six.

What you say is correct at a certain standard of play. But "normal play" depends upon the calibre of the declarer. The above line is not assured for a novice, or that class of club player who despite years of playing never much improved beyond novice level. This one, in claiming, does not appear to have remembered that bad trump breaks can occur. This makes me suspect that the player could well be of that of "persistently near novice-like" class.

In fact it is rather likely - though not assured - to make the contract even with "near novice-like instincts". The instinct you need is only (1) get S to ruff to shorten his trumps and then draw them and (2) make sure you take the marked trump finesse before running out of entries to table, even if that is before S ruffs - for S may delay ruffing in. However whilst I suspect that (1) is probably what a player of this class would do, (2) is probably a bit tricky to be relied on at that level. Thus at such a level of play I'd rule 1 down.

[Fluffy]

wasn't there something about not taking finesses after a claim?

[sfi]

iviehoff, on 2013-June-24, 01:33, said:

What you say is correct at a certain standard of play. But "normal play" depends upon the calibre of the declarer. The above line is not assured for a novice, or that class of club player who despite years of playing never much improved beyond novice level. This one, in claiming, does not appear to have remembered that bad trump breaks can occur. This makes me suspect that the player could well be of that of "persistently near novice-like" class.

In fact it is rather likely - though not assured - to make the contract even with "near novice-like instincts". The instinct you need is only (1) get S to ruff to shorten his trumps and then draw them and (2) make sure you take the marked trump finesse before running out of entries to table, even if that is before S ruffs - for S may delay ruffing in. However whilst I suspect that (1) is probably what a player of this class would do, (2) is probably a bit tricky to be relied on at that level. Thus at such a level of play I'd rule 1 down.

You can make by noticing the 5-0 break, going to dummy and drawing 4 rounds of trumps. As long as you then cash minor suit winners South can't beat you. You don't even need to think about getting them to shorten trumps. Declarer has to try really hard to not make this hand.

[sfi]

Fluffy, on 2013-June-24, 02:51, said:

wasn't there something about not taking finesses after a claim?

Not now, if there ever was. What declarer can't do is guess something correctly. So, if there is a finesse or drop guess, the ruling would assume that declarer would get that wrong all the time unless it can be shown that the correct line is marked. Here, North showing out removes the guess and changes the situation regarding the claim.

More generally, adjudicating claims takes into account non-percentage lines. But it does not force no-win plays on declarer.

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on 2013-June-24, 02:51, said:

wasn't there something about not taking finesses after a claim?

Not exactly.

Quote

Law 70E1: The Director shall not accept from claimer any unstated line of play the success of which depends upon finding one opponent rather than the other with a particular card, unless an opponent failed to follow to the suit of that card before the claim was made, or would subsequently fail to follow to that suit on any normal* line of play or unless failure to adopt that line of play would be irrational.

In the case at hand, North will discard on the first round of trump, so we allow declarer the finesse.

Edit: missed sfi's earlier response.

[pran]

sfi, on 2013-June-24, 03:40, said:

Fluffy, on 2013-June-24, 02:51, said:

wasn't there something about not taking finesses after a claim?

Not now, if there ever was. What declarer can't do is guess something correctly. So, if there is a finesse or drop guess, the ruling would assume that declarer would get that wrong all the time unless it can be shown that the correct line is marked. Here, North showing out removes the guess and changes the situation regarding the claim.

More generally, adjudicating claims takes into account non-percentage lines. But it does not force no-win plays on declarer.

Law 70E1 said:

The Director shall not accept from claimer any unstated line of play the success of which depends upon finding one opponent rather than the other with a particular card, unless an opponent failed to follow to the suit of that card before the claim was made, or would subsequently fail to follow to that suit on any normal* line of play, or unless failure to adopt that line of play would be irrational.

This Law has been in force, literally at least since 1975 and effectively since long before that.

It covers among other things taking finesses unless the location of a (key) card is known from a player showing out before the Critical moment.

[sfi]

pran, on 2013-June-24, 05:58, said:

This Law has been in force, literally at least since 1975 and effectively since long before that.

I added the caveat because I thought there might have been something about it in the rubber bridge laws once upon a time. Certainly Mollo's characters quote something along those lines, although that may simply have been writer's license.

[VixTD]

Hanoi5, on 2013-June-22, 19:15, said:

I misvoted. 6 Spades made and 6 Spades +1.

I did the same. It's a shame we can't edit genuine errors like this. Sorry for messing up the statistics.

[iviehoff]

sfi, on 2013-June-24, 03:37, said:

You can make by noticing the 5-0 break, going to dummy and drawing 4 rounds of trumps. As long as you then cash minor suit winners South can't beat you. You don't even need to think about getting them to shorten trumps. Declarer has to try really hard to not make this hand.

I wasn't arguing that the player wouldn't notice the break, I was saying that the player might not be clever enough to spot that line works. And I made precisely the same point as you that it is quite hard to go off, even if you don't start by drawing 4 rounds of trumps. In other words, even a naive player will often make. But "often" isn't good enough for a claim. If the player is of "naive" class, as indicated by the odd bidding and incompetent claim, there are ways the naive blunderer can go off, without deliberately trying. In particular you can use up your diamond entries before taking the marked trump finesse, and also (as someone else pointed out) you can fail to unblock trumps and get trapped in dummy.

[blackshoe]

The line of play statement was "drawing trumps" so he's not going to start with diamonds, he's going to start with a trump to the ace (after trumping the heart opening lead). Now a) he knows the trump split, and b) he knows he has to play a low diamond to get to dummy for the finesse. After six tricks (one ruff in dummy, a high trump, a low diamond to dummy, the trump finesse, and two more trump tricks) the only way he can go wrong is to play the ♥A before South gets in with his trump. It would take a truly clueless player to do that.

[barmar]

iviehoff, on 2013-June-24, 07:16, said:

I wasn't arguing that the player wouldn't notice the break, I was saying that the player might not be clever enough to spot that line works. And I made precisely the same point as you that it is quite hard to go off, even if you don't start by drawing 4 rounds of trumps. In other words, even a naive player will often make. But "often" isn't good enough for a claim. If the player is of "naive" class, as indicated by the odd bidding and incompetent claim, there are ways the naive blunderer can go off, without deliberately trying. In particular you can use up your diamond entries before taking the marked trump finesse, and also (as someone else pointed out) you can fail to unblock trumps and get trapped in dummy.

The claim said that he was drawing trumps first. So we can presume that he isn't going to play two rounds of diamonds before discovering the bad trump split. Also, the fact that the player trumped the opening lead rather than winning the ace and then ruffing suggests that he's capable of a reasonable level of planning.

So while there may be some declarers who would still manage to go wrong on these cards, I don't think this declarer is among them.