[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2013-July-19, 17:51, said:

cute


Can I confirm, this 2♥ is the 'Kokish relay' which makes 2C our only forcing opening and 2N a 'gambling 2N' opening?

No, you cannot

I assume a 20-21 2N opening bid. The exact range is unimportant other than for adjusting the higher ranges to be differentiated after opening 2♣.

Thus a minimum 2♣ opening, on a balanced hand, is 22.

As with 1N and 2N openings, most players believe that it is best to play a narrow range. While 3 point ranges such as 15-17 for 1N are common, most 2N bids have a 2 point range, tho many fudge by 'half a point'.

Kokish as I learned it and play it separates opener's hands into 2 point ranges: 22-23, 24-25, 26-27, 28-29, 30+

We assume a 2♦ waiting response, positive or unspecified is irrelevant.

2♥ is either hearts or a koskish range.

If we go through 2♥ and then bid nt, we show the next range above what a direct notrump bid would have meant

2N 22-23

2♥ then 2N: 24-25

3N" 26-27

2♥ then 3N 28-29 and so on.

I made a mistake in my earlier post where I suggested we could have shown 25-26: that is true if a 2N showed 20-22, but not if it showed 20-21. In the former case, all of the ranges after 2♣ move up one point, since the weakest we would be would be 23.

[jillybean]

Thanks! It sounds good and not too tough on the memory cells

Or perhaps not so simple http://www.bridgebas...-and-his-relay/

[blackshoe]

Romex uses controls over 2♣, but there's a lot more to it than just that. For one thing, a Romex player would open that hand 2NT, not 2♣.

[the hog]

The method are terrible. So pd has the D A. How many Qs does pd have. I think 4NT is pretty obvious, but I would not play this method if your paid me. (Well, that depends how much, I guess).

[fromageGB]

FWIW, Kokish does not depend on having a 2D waiting (weak or strong). I play 2D negative and 2H positive, and therefore the Kokish 2NT via 2H happens only after a negative. This is where the 2-point ranges are critical, to enable partner to make a game decision. Over a positive you are game forcing anyway, but the NT bids are now 3 point range.

After 2D, 2NT = 22/23, 2H then 2NT = 24/25, 3NT = 26/27
After 2H, 2NT = 22-24, 3NT = 25-27.

Another aspect of the Kokish relay is to enable opener to show 2-suited hands, and in this light 2NT is also a relay over opener's 2S rebid.

[Fluffy]

Kathryn your 3NT bid was very bad IMO, first of all you have a form of stayman available and should use it with 4cM, and second, you are the one who should try more with 30+ HCP combined.

2♣-2x
2NT-3♣
3♦-3♠
3NT-4NT

and you easilly reach slam.

[jillybean]

Hi Gonzalo, was my failure to use stayman the real culprit here or is it the lack of the 4N bid? I would usually show a 4 card major but decided here wisely or not, not to show the T965.

Your suggested auction looks like smolen but I assume you play it as showing 4 card hearts and slam interest?

[aguahombre]

The Diamond Ace thing is just to add confusion to a simple situation.

If Opener shows 22-24, Pard should invite slam. If Opener shows 25-27, Pard should bid slam. If Opener shows 22-24 when he really has 25-27, he will certainly accept Pard's quantitative invitation. That is not some random 8-count up there.

[helene_t]

jillybean, on 2013-July-21, 12:26, said:

Your suggested auction looks like smolen but I assume you play it as showing 4 card hearts and slam interest?

If you play Smolen (and, hence, regular Stayman) it would go

2♣-2♥
2NT-3♣
3♠-4NT
6NT

Apparently Gonzalo plays puppet stayman. This doesn't show slam interest (but of course the 4NT bid does show slam interest )

[gwnn]

You can also keep it simple and play something like

2C-2D
2H-2S (2NT instead of 2H would have been 22-24 balanced, non-forcing)
2NT=25+ balanced.

Then responder assumes opener is 25-27 as that is by far the most likely range. If opener has 28+ he/she will just bid again over most signoffs from partner. It is not pretty but at least you have the 3 level to sort out fits.

The same can be done with 2-point ranges of course. But nobody counts points for these big balanced or semi-balanced hands anymore anyway.

[Fluffy]

Actually I don't play puppet stayman, I would use helene's bidding, but I though you did because you mentioned it here http://www.bridgebas...936#entry739936

Failing to use stayman is in general a mistake for me with 4c major, but there are several good players who think otherwise.

Concretely if you are playing IMPs and don't plan on going to slam, 3NT is a lot safer than 4♥ when you are over 29 combined, having a weak suit makes it even better to play NT. So your decision not to use stayman is fine as long as you don't plan to go to slam, but that is a mistake IMO, 8 points is a big lot opposite 2♣/

[aguahombre]

Once we found out North was Jilly, the question in the title was resolved .

[quiddity]

edit - nm.

[jillybean]

aguahombre, on 2013-July-22, 13:10, said:

Once we found out North was Jilly, the question in the title was resolved .

lol

I've come a full circle.

[jillybean]

So, we were going to change our 2C controls system to Kokish (http://www.bridgeguy...ish_relays.html) for the JEC match but got bogged down with the system notes we found. Mike, there's either a lot more been added to it than way back when you learned it or you have given me a very simplified version.

The notes we have not only use 2C for 20-21 nt opening but use the 2♥ puppet to 2♠ to allow opener to show a nt, hearts or hearts and minor hand and a 2S puppet to 2N to show a two suited Spade+? hand or spades and then there is a section on how responder breaks the puppet and makes a transfer bid.
I like the ability to show a strong 2-suit hand.

We have some work to do here, in the meantime we have ditched controls and are using 2C 2D waiting and cheaper minor, 2nd negative.

[Fluffy]

forget about multi puppets that don't show up ever, just play the basic 2♥ puppet with GF range versusalmost GF range in direct 2NT, when you are comfortable with this you can try the 20-21 switch but I think you shouldn't use it untill you have really tested the basic.

[fromageGB]

Fluffy, not sure what you mean by multi-puppets, but playing 2♦ waiting followed by "puppet" compulsory next step if opener's second bid is 2♥ OR 2♠ (both are puppets) is very easy to do and seems obviously sensible. They do happen a lot (in the context of having a 2♣ open in the first place).

I agree that putting the 20 count into the 2♣ ladder is unnecessary unless you have a need to use 2NT for something else, and certainly if you keep the standard 2NT opening of 20/21 and start with 2♣ when balanced 22+ it is simple and you can't go wrong. I guess a downside of including the 20 count is that you would then need a NT ladder of 3 point ranges, rather than 2 point, which makes it less useful opposite a very week hand.

A thing to note, if new to this, is that when opener starts with 2♣ then 2♠, he will have a spade suit so the puppet reply of 2NT is not compulsory - you only do this when you do not have prime spade support (which shows it immediately). In contrast of course with 2♣ then 2♥ which forces a compulsory 2♠ as opener may not have hearts at all.

[fromageGB]

Jilly, the link you gave has some dubious content. For example : "
2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.
. . 2♦ Normally a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.
2♥ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 Spades in order that the opener can clarify his holding.
. . 2♠ The puppet bid.
3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Clubs."

To me, that shows a 2-suiter with hearts and clubs. With spades and clubs I bid 2♣ 2♠ 3♣.
And "other responses" are possible. For example, you can do an immediate transfer with a long suit, rather than starting with 2♦

[jillybean]

fromageGB, on 2013-July-27, 16:58, said:

Jilly, the link you gave has some dubious content. For example : "
2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.
. . 2♦ Normally a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.
2♥ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 Spades in order that the opener can clarify his holding.
. . 2♠ The puppet bid.
3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Clubs."

To me, that shows a 2-suiter with hearts and clubs. With spades and clubs I bid 2♣ 2♠ 3♣.
And "other responses" are possible. For example, you can do an immediate transfer with a long suit, rather than starting with 2♦

Can you read it again, I think it does say the 2♥ puppet to 2♠ followed by 3♣ shows hearts and clubs.

2♣ 2♦
2♠2N
3♣ shows spades and clubs

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2013-July-27, 16:10, said:

So, we were going to change our 2C controls system to Kokish (http://www.bridgeguy...ish_relays.html) for the JEC match but got bogged down with the system notes we found. Mike, there's either a lot more been added to it than way back when you learned it or you have given me a very simplified version.
<snipped>

We have some work to do here, in the meantime we have ditched controls and are using 2C 2D waiting and cheaper minor, 2nd negative.

I suspect both factors at play, with the main one being that Kokish LOVES complexity. I strongly advise against attempting to play most of what he suggests because of that factor. He is very thoughtful, but much of what he suggests is for very dedicated, and already expert, partnerships, as I recall. My coaching with him was a long time ago and I doubt that he has simplified things much. I was in a very serious partnership at the time, with arguably the most complex methods ever played in Canada to that date, and much of what he told us was too esoteric even for us

I do like switching clubs and hearts after 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠: now 3♣ shows the heart one-suiter, and 3♥ shows hearts and clubs...this allows responder to bid a forcing 3♥ over 3♣, while over a natural 3♥, responder, whose shape is virtually unlimited, can't easily confirm hearts while establishing a force.

Btw, you probably already know, but I happen to think that cheaper minor 2nd negative is a woeful approach...I think I'd rather play controls, and I don't like control showing responses at all