[32519]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-June-11, 18:16, said:

The most common multi paring seems to be garbage multi with 3-8 going through 2D and direct being 9-11. This probably warrants a different defence. Presumably the 2M is quite pure and the 2D is insane.

 32519, on 2013-July-22, 10:21, said:

How often and by how much do you gain from this? Once your major is known, it is also known that most of your measly HCPs will be in that suit. With the opponents declaring they are going to be finessing partner in the other three suits for any missing high cards. Another downside is wasting the 2♦ which could be used for something else. You can put some discipline into the 2♥ and 2♠ bids by insisting that they are sound when red (9-11 HCP). White you still have OGUST/Feature Ask/Shortage Ask when interested in game?

 FrancesHinden, on 2013-July-22, 14:02, said:

No. The whole point of the garbage multi is that it is a totally random pre-empt. I've seen xxxxx Kx Kxx xxx and similar type hands opened at favourable. It's intended to be basically just a random destructive opening, and it can be quite effective. Obviously you play a different scheme of responses to the ones you would use opposite a normal weak two.

A destructive opening as random as this surely buggers around your own partner as well when he has real values and a fit in your suit? So how do you untangle this mess now?

[manudude03]

2NT enquiry. Playing trash multi, you probably want the 3m bids to show maximums allowing the next step to check if the hand was something like the hand Frances posted.

[Cyberyeti]

 manudude03, on 2013-July-23, 00:04, said:

2NT enquiry. Playing trash multi, you probably want the 3m bids to show maximums allowing the next step to check if the hand was something like the hand Frances posted.

What we used to do over the trash multi was divide responses into 4 ranges 1 being the worst.

2N is the enquiry then:

3♣/♦ are ranges 1,2,4 ♥/♠
3M is range 3 in that major

Over 3♣/♦:

if partner bids the intermediate suit, you bid game with range 2, sign off with range 1 and bid something else with range 4.
if partner signs off, you respect this with ranges 1/2 and bid on with range 4.

If interested in game only in one major, you respond at the 2 level in the other major.

We actually used to play strong bids in there as well so 4 level bids over 2N were not available.

Edit: we weren't playing a purely trash multi, we used 2M for something else so we had to cover ALL weak 2s 0-9.

[PhilKing]

Range is usually not the issue with the trash multi. When responder is strong you need to be able to explore. The way to do this is to use two relays:

3♣ just focuses on range

2NT focuses on texture and is game forcing

After 2NT:

3♣ trash with hearts, my suit is either very bad 6 or most 5s
3♦ same with spades
3♥ spades OK 6-card suit
3♠ hearts OK 6-card suit

[hrothgar]

 32519, on 2013-July-22, 22:42, said:

A destructive opening as random as this surely buggers around your own partner as well when he has real values and a fit in your suit? So how do you untangle this mess now?

Its worth noting that the weaker your opening, the less likely that partner needs to be able to explore for slam...
Opposite a garbage only multi you can optimize your responses on exploring for game and not worry so much about whether you're missing slam

[32519]

Here's another question:
Partner opens a trash Multi but I have a single suited hand. How do I get to play my single suiter without partner misunderstanding the bid I make?

[hrothgar]

 32519, on 2013-July-23, 06:00, said:

Here's another question:
Partner opens a trash Multi but I have a single suited hand. How do I get to play my single suiter without partner misunderstanding the bid I make?

By having appropriate agreements with your partner

[32519]

 hrothgar, on 2013-July-23, 06:01, said:

By having appropriate agreements with your partner

OK, so now I have to choose what to use the 2NT bid for; Lebensohl or a texture GF bid. It's one or the other. I can't have both.

[hrothgar]

 32519, on 2013-July-23, 06:11, said:

OK, so now I have to choose what to use the 2NT bid for; Lebensohl or a texture GF bid. It's one or the other. I can't have both.

1. Regarding Lebensohl: You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means
2. Regarding having to chose what your 2NT bid means: This is hardly unique to a garbage multi
3. In general: I don't give a rat's ass what methods you use. Its not the job of this board to convince you what methods are or are not good. If you don't like playing a garbage multi, then don't use it. But regardless of what you decide, please spare us the never ending series of incoherent posts...

[blackshoe]

 32519, on 2013-July-22, 22:42, said:

A destructive opening as random as this surely buggers around your own partner as well when he has real values and a fit in your suit? So how do you untangle this mess now?

It's hard to pin down the ACBL on what their regulations actually mean, but both the General Convention Chart and the Mid-Chart prohibit "Conventions and/or agreements whose primary purpose is to destroy the opponents’ methods", so I think this agreement would be illegal in North America, even when the multi is allowed.

[32519]

Your first post added value. But then you seemed to lose the plot. No need to throw your toys out the cot if you don't know what the answer is. I'm sure someone will have the answer, someone from the ECB who faces this stuff regularly. Like maybe Frances Hinden?

[hrothgar]

 blackshoe, on 2013-July-23, 06:57, said:

It's hard to pin down the ACBL on what their regulations actually mean, but both the General Convention Chart and the Mid-Chart prohibit "Conventions and/or agreements whose primary purpose is to destroy the opponents’ methods", so I think this agreement would be illegal in North America, even when the multi is allowed.

Not sure that I agree...

32519 and, more significantly, Frances have both described the garbage multi as random / destructive.
At the same time, I can't help believe that basing convention regulations on particular adjectives that third parties use to describe openings is problematic (at best)...

I think that something more than a label is needed...

[Cyberyeti]

If you want constructive bids with the other major available, you can do it various ways, I'll give some:

If you assume you won't have a 6-5 major fit and be allowed to play at the 2 level in the other major (a dodgy assumption, but works in practice as it's pretty rare for you to have that big a fit and opps stay silent)

2♦-2M-any-3M is one way you can bid a forcing hand with a 6+ card major eg 2♦-2♥-2♠-3♥

You can also decide to use the inferior 2♦-3♦ as "I want to play in 3 of your major" so 2♦-3M is natural

You can also use 2♦-3♣ as "how good is your hand and other major ?"

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-July-22, 22:42, said:

A destructive opening as random as this surely buggers around your own partner as well when he has real values and a fit in your suit? So how do you untangle this mess now?

The value of this convention is not really how well you can develop your constructive sequences. The real point is that there is a lot of pressure on the opponents compared to multi with strong options, since neither of them may get a second chance to bid.

[Trinidad]

 32519, on 2013-July-22, 22:42, said:

A destructive opening as random as this surely buggers around your own partner as well when he has real values and a fit in your suit? So how do you untangle this mess now?

A 4♥ preemptive opening can bugger your partner as well when he has real values. Does that mean that you never open 4♥?

The point with all preemptive actions is: You win some, you lose some. Those who play a garbage multi certainly think that they win more than they lose.

But let's think about your problem. We will give partner the whale of a hand that you are afraid of:

When we play the garbage multi the auction starts (as an example, with silent opponents):
2♦-2NT
3 something: I have a garbage weak two in hearts and 3-5 HCP.

When we don't play the garbage multi, the auction will start:
Pass-2♣ (let's assume that the opponents leave the auction to us)
2♦-2NT (some range)
3♦: I have 5+ hearts

For constructive purposes: In what situation would you rather be?

A ) That the strong hand (and declarer) knows a lot about the weak hand and nothing is known about the strong hand?
B ) That the weak hand (and dummy) knows the HCP range for the strong hand and that the strong hand knows that the weak hand has 5+ hearts?

I know that I would prefer to be in A). Maybe I should start playing garbage multi?!?

Rik

[mycroft]

2♦ multi has never been a winner (even though it does win, sometimes) and has never intended to be a winner. It has always had two purposes (which it does to one extent or another, depending on the partnership agreement):

- have a bid for uncomfortable-to-bid hands, meaning we don't have to worry about them when we open 1 of whatever;
- free up 2M for different uses, that are hard-to-impossible to bid otherwise.

The goal is for the gains from those two purposes to be greater than the cost of 2♦ (and the cost of not being able to open 2♦ with a weak 2 in diamonds).

Any attempt to clean up 2♦ independent of the rest of the system, or to worry unduly that any call has hands where they're -EV compared to some other way to play (again, independent of the rest of the system) is the realm of the resulter, and that way lies madness.

Realize that there are hands where you are going to lose because of your system, and accept them when they happen (while still accepting the gains when you get them, too, both when you do it and when you don't). If the costs are unacceptable, or too great compared to the rewards, over time, do something different; but holistically to the system, not to the one pain point.

Having said that, a 1-7 weak-only Multi (or a "crap suit" weak-only Multi, or whatever you choose to do) combined with "solid weak 2s" in the Majors, works well because you throw away your science when partner has 18-20, in exchange for pooching their science when partner has 0-12 AND putting the confidence back into 2M-4M (and 2M-X-4M-bid; p-p-X)

[32519]

A request to the EBU players:
How about this for a Garbage Only Multi continuation sequence? Can it work? What must I change?
This suggestion used the 2D-4C sequence as the anchor around which the rest has been devised, where the 4C bid is asking opener to transfer into whichever major he has. Here’s the deal –
2D-Pass = (The hand belongs to the opponents, I got crap but D)
2D-2H = Pass/correct, the hand belongs to the opponents (Before you reject this option outright, remember that your teammates in the closed room will have the strong hand; the board may still turn out to be flat)
2D-2S = I have game values if we can find a fit but can support only 1 major, not necessarily S. Tell me more about your hand. The continuation bidding would go like this –
.........2NT = My suit is H not S to keep you as the declarer
…………3C = We have a fit, tell me how good/bad your opening was
……………3D = Bad, 3-5 HCP, not necessarily in H (responder will signoff in 3H)
……………4D = Good, 6-8 HCP, mostly in the H suit (responder will signoff in 4H)
…………3H = To play, no fit
…….3C = My suit is S, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….3D = My suit is S, good Multi, 6-8 HCP, mostly in the S suit
…….(Depending on the degree of fit and the response, responder signs off in 3S or 4S)
2D-2NT = Lebensohl (responder has a single suited hand and wants to play in his suit)
2D-3C = Game values, support for both majors, transfer into your suit at the appropriate level please
…….3D = My suit is H, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….3H = My suit is S, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….4D = My suit is H, good Multi, 6-8 HCP
…….4H = My suit is S, good Multi, 6-8 HCP
2D-3D = D pre-empt, the hand belongs to the opponents, let them figure out which major suit fit they have

Because this is the Garbage Multi, I never went past 3D for the continuation bidding. I’m inviting the other forum posters to extend/complete/adjust/modify this sequence.

[wank]

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 00:24, said:

A request to the ECB players:

yes, representatives of the European Central Bank and the England and Wales Cricket Board are just the sort of people you play against in your club in RSA and destroy with your advanced bidding theory.

[32519]

 wank, on 2013-July-24, 00:35, said:

yes, representatives of the European Central Bank and the England and Wales Cricket Board are just the sort of people you play against in your club in RSA and destroy with your advanced bidding theory.

Just to keep you happy as well the typo was fixed. If you've got nothing to add, then add nothing!

[gwnn]

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 00:51, said:

Just to keep you happy as well the typo was fixed. If you've got nothing to add, then add nothing!

Amen.