[mr1303]

J109xxxx
X
X
AQxx

Over their 1NT (15-17), you decide to bid 2S at love all. LHO bids 3H passed back to you. Do you call again?

If you ask whether the opps play Lebensohl, they will ask you what Lebensohl is.

[Lord Molyb]

3♥ looks absolutely forcing so I pass
The opponents have not discussed this agreement, so there's a good chance they have messed up.

[PhilKing]

I lead a club.

[cherdano]

PhilKing, on 2013-November-03, 07:40, said:

I lead a club.

I doubt you would actually do that at the table.

[Lord Molyb]

PhilKing, on 2013-November-03, 07:40, said:

I lead a club.

out of turn?

[FrancesHinden]

Lord Molyb, on 2013-November-03, 07:12, said:

3♥ looks absolutely forcing so I pass
The opponents have not discussed this agreement, so there's a good chance they have messed up.

Traditionally in England 3H is non-forcing.
To the extent that a forcing 3H bid is alertable. So you might think they could have had a mess-up, but it's by no means guaranteed.

[HighLow21]

Pass and expect them to make 10-11 tricks most of the time.

[Zelandakh]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-November-04, 15:59, said:

Traditionally in England 3H is non-forcing.
To the extent that a forcing 3H bid is alertable. So you might think they could have had a mess-up, but it's by no means guaranteed.

I was quite surprised to find this out earlier in the year, since it never occurred to me that 3 level bids would be non-forcing in many years of playing in England and I learned the reverse. Is this an England-wide tradition or something peculiar to London? Was it in the 1970ish Acol Blue Book?

Within the BBO Acol Club I have never seen a 3 level bid in this sequence alerted by an opponent however they intended it. Observation from players in the club suggests that the better players tend to play forcing (even without Lebensohl agreed) and the poorer players tend to play natural (with undefined strength)apparently expecting their partners to guess.

My partner and I play transfers here and I would feel bad in f2f bridge if an opponent was disadvantaged because they did not ask after an alert (since 90+% of alerts are probably for natural and forcing). Yes I know this is their responsibility but it is also tiresome to have to ask every time for things that "everyone" plays.

[Vampyr]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-November-04, 15:59, said:

Traditionally in England 3H is non-forcing.
To the extent that a forcing 3H bid is alertable.

Wow. That is so unexpected it wouldn't have occurred to me (or to most people?) to look it up.

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-05, 05:55, said:

I was quite surprised to find this out earlier in the year, since it never occurred to me that 3 level bids would be non-forcing in many years of playing in England and I learned the reverse. Is this an England-wide tradition or something peculiar to London? Was it in the 1970ish Acol Blue Book?

I think it makes a lot of sense when playing weak NT, matchpoints, and opps would usually make constructive overcalls. You want to make a competitive freebid more often than a COG. Some of the COG hands can double (although that has traditionally been penalty, I think most club players play it as t/o now) or bid their suit.

Quote

(since 90+% of alerts are probably for natural and forcing).

No, natural and forcing is not so common and those who play it generally don't know that it is alertable. The few times I have seen this alerted it has been a transfer.

[Zelandakh]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-05, 05:55, said:

(since 90+% of alerts probably should be for natural and forcing).

FMP.

It seems more sensible to me for a competitive freebid to double and a COG hand to bid, or better yet for a competitive hand to bid 2NT followed by their suit (am sure this latter idea would never catch on though).

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-November-04, 15:59, said:

Traditionally in England 3H is non-forcing.
To the extent that a forcing 3H bid is alertable. So you might think they could have had a mess-up, but it's by no means guaranteed.

It would never have occurred to me to alert it as forcing IF it was the only 3♥ bid I had, having 2 3♥ bids, I'd alert it whether I played it as forcing or not due to the inference of having the 2N route also available.

We actually play reverse lebensohl so 2N-3♣-3♥ is the forcing one, and direct 3♥ is NF, should we be alerting this ? We do atm.

[FrancesHinden]

I repeat, a non-forcing 3-level bid is not alertable. A forcing (natural) one is alertable.

This is still how the majority of club players play. At the premier league this weekend, one pair started the auction 1NT (2S) 3C natural non-forcing not alerted. (Although that was under WBF alerting rules.)

[ggwhiz]

mr1303, on 2013-November-03, 06:08, said:

If you ask whether the opps play Lebensohl, they will ask you what Lebensohl is.

I'll ask them if they know what an alert is and when I get a blank stare pass and eat the result.

First game I played in in South Africa lho opened 1♣ and rho emphatically announce "Approach!" (I'm already here). The differences in alertables between jurisdictions is often hilarious.