[steve2005]

 aguahombre, on 2013-December-25, 18:31, said:

This doesn't compute. Opener's diamond suit will be so ratty, he will want to bid it rather than bid 3NT with no stopper. Responder, in bidding 3C, doesn't even care if 3D is a ratty 4-bagger or a hedge with nowhere to go ...2-6-(32). She will bid 4D anyway.

the original poster said they play kickback. so 3♣ followed by 4♦ could be keycard for ♣ in some sequences.
safer to bid 3♦ followed by 4♣ and shows the same sort of hand but with better/longer ♦

[MrAce]

 steve2005, on 2013-December-27, 06:36, said:

I think some people will bid 3♥ not considering Jxxx♦ a good enough stopper for 3N.
& 6♦ will still be good without J♦ just xxxx

Steve, bro

Of course in forums people always land on their feet. Because they all bid 3♦ with Jxxx or xxxx or rebid hearts the 3rd time with AQxxxx quality, because they are all focused on landing on their feet vs what pd holds. Everybody who advocates 1♠ with S hand, conveniently ignore the AJ doubleton spade as opener because they know pd has Kxxx spade and not a 5-6 card spades. (i include myself in this criticism)

What happens, god forbid, when responder holds different spade holding which will make the same bid in std methods.It is very easy of course, they will, again, conveniently bid their HH or Hx or xx Hxx or xxx spades as opener and will ignore Jxxx or xxxx diamond or AQxxxx hearts when responder happens to hold KQxxx or Kxxxxx or KQxxxx spades.


Starting 1♠ leading to unmanageable auctions are not limited to forcing-nf issues or excessive space consuming or helping not helping pd to which suit to focus. It has much more issues than that which would take a page if i start to, which i won't. .( such as slam invitation hands vs slam forcing hands vs slam forcing hands and kickback or minor wood or setting the trumps for keycards vs slam forcing hands but needs control cuebid hands, all will pile up at 4 level and in forums it is of course easy to know which one is which each and every time, unfortunately it takes its tolls in real life) I have sympathy if you are playing 1♥-2m-2♠ showing extrasCan you see how butterfly effect it makes on the whole system ? Some go around it simply by playing the F convention. Some like me play 2♠ after opening 1♥ over a 2/1 response just shows 9 cards in rounded suits.

Starting 1♠ with 4 cards only when responder holds a very strong hand, gains when opener rebids 1 NT, of course, and that's is pretty much about it that it actually matters.

[the hog]

MrAce said:

1388183387[/url]' post='770958']
Steve, bro

Of course in forums people always land on their feet. Because they all bid 3♦ with Jxxx or xxxx or rebid hearts the 3rd time with AQxxxx quality, because they are all focused on landing on their feet vs what pd holds. Everybody who advocates 1♠ with S hand, conveniently ignore the AJ doubleton spade as opener because they know pd has Kxxx spade and not a 5-6 card spades. (i include myself in this criticism)

What happens, god forbid, when responder holds different spade holding which will make the same bid in std methods.It is very easy of course, they will, again, conveniently bid their HH or Hx or xx Hxx or xxx spades as opener and will ignore Jxxx or xxxx diamond or AQxxxx hearts when responder happens to hold KQxxx or Kxxxxx or KQxxxx spades.


Starting 1♠ leading to unmanageable auctions are not limited to forcing-nf issues or excessive space consuming or helping not helping pd to which suit to focus. It has much more issues than that which would take a page if i start to, which i won't. .( such as slam invitation hands vs slam forcing hands vs slam forcing hands and kickback or minor wood or setting the trumps for keycards vs slam forcing hands but needs control cuebid hands, all will pile up at 4 level and in forums it is of course easy to know which one is which each and every time, unfortunately it takes its tolls in real life) I have sympathy if you are playing 1♥-2m-2♠ showing extrasCan you see how butterfly effect it makes on the whole system ? Some go around it simply by playing the F convention. Some like me play 2♠ after opening 1♥ over a 2/1 response just shows 9 cards in rounded suits.

Starting 1♠ with 4 cards only when responder holds a very strong hand, gains when opener rebids 1 NT, of course, and that's is pretty much about it that it actually matters.

Rofl

[Phil]

Anyone that bids 1♠ needs some remedial education.

[aguahombre]

 Phil, on 2013-December-28, 11:47, said:

Anyone that bids 1♠ needs some remedial education.

Translation: We need to adopt your style. Since I don't know your continuations after a 2C response and you don't know whether we have adequate methods after 1H-1S or what we would give up by bidding 2C..or whether other complications/ inferences are involved --- the education would have to be more than remedial.

[Phil]

 aguahombre, on 2013-December-28, 18:34, said:

Translation: We need to adopt your style.

?

Not at all. 1♠ looks like one of those completely obvious bids but it leads to having to create some artificial force later that makes the auction unmanageable. Or, create some home brew workaround.

Now, MY style would be to respond 2♣ with one or even two less clubs or even one more spade but I don't expect you or a lot of others to adopt it or even appreciate the merits, especially if you thiink 1♠ is correct on this pattern, which it isn't.

It's so funny. I have a distinct memory in about 2006 reading Rexfords views on the subject and thinking what a retard how can we ever express our club length? When I came around I started enjoying easier auctions and getting to good slams.

1♥ - 1♠ is the ugliest start to any natural auction.

[the hog]

Phil said:

1388252820[/url]' post='771030']
Anyone that bids 1♠ needs some remedial education.

I remember a post quite a while ago where Phil bid 2c on a hand and then instead of showing the bal hand with a 2nt bid, bid another 4 card suit. Now this needs remedial bidding lessons. Treating a 6-4 the same way as a 4-4 is not good bidding. I f you play a relay structure or similar to one posted in this thread fine. Otherwise good luck ink conveying your shape if you don't rebid 2nt.

[mike777]

I thought this was a very interesting thread so I emailed the responder hand around.
This is one email I got from someone who helped me learn bridge back in 71. He touches on several issues when you start with either one spade or 2c and further bids. He is a well known bridge player in the greater Boston area today. From Urbana back when.


"2C risks the partnership not being able to figure out how many clubs it has. It is slightly better if your agreement is for opener to bid 2S with any 4-5. Otherwise, if opener bids 2H YOU have to bid 2S and now you will never convince him that you have only 4-4. If opener raises 2C to 3C you can really be boxed in. You may find out he has a good hand for slam but unless he has a miracle hand you don't want to be in 6C in a 4-3 fit.



On the other hand, auctions that start 1H-1S when responder has a game force can get very ugly. Pard bids 2D, you have to bid 3C to force to game, pard bids 3NT and you have to bid 4D. I actually like to play transfers here so 4C would show diamonds, but in standard, pard will rarely be able to do anything intelligent over 4D, especially when you have this hand. I guess if you have an agreement that 4NT over 2D is key-card for diamonds you would be OK.



The other problem with 1S is that if pard bids 2S with 3-5 in the majors, 4-1 or 1-4 in the minors you will never find your 8-card minor suit fit.



I'd call the initial choice between 1S and 2C a toss-up."

[mike777]

btw here is an email response to the above from an old friend.

"I play that opener is obligated to bid 2s over 2c with 4, and cannot immediately raise clubs without 4. I think this is now fairly standard. So I don't think 2c has any of the drawbacks of 1s."

I note that some forum members disagree with the above further bids.

Some posters will not always rebid 2s with openers or always rebid 2s with responder's hand.

[MinorKid]

The golden rule for slam bidding is not to bid a poor suit with a very good hand.
Playing with usual partner I will bid 2♣ over 1♥ but knowing that my partner not preferring to rebid 2♦ with ♦xxxx over 2♣, I will consider responding 2♦ over 1♥.

I would ignore Spades and bid the other minor next round.

[Phil]

 the hog, on 2013-December-28, 19:38, said:

I remember a post quite a while ago where Phil bid 2c on a hand and then instead of showing the bal hand with a 2nt bid, bid another 4 card suit. Now this needs remedial bidding lessons. Treating a 6-4 the same way as a 4-4 is not good bidding. I f you play a relay structure or similar to one posted in this thread fine. Otherwise good luck ink conveying your shape if you don't rebid 2nt.

IDK Ron it depends how the auction develops. If pard rebids 2♥ I feel pretty safe bidding 2♠. Partner won't hang me holding 3♣ LOL but then again a pointed suit ruff could be #12. That's about the only continuation where I'd bid spades so I'm not sure what the ruckus is all about.

Relays obv work fine here but I don't need the brain damage.

[awm]

If you accept that 1H-2C-2S need not show extras, responding 2C is really without risk. You will find out about any 4-4 fit immediately at partner's next call. Note that this is not necessarily the case after 1H-1S, because partner might bypass a four-card minor to rebid 2H (as here), or might choose to raise spades on a three-card holding in preference to either introducing a four-card minor or rebidding a six-card heart suit.

After 1H-2C-2H, in this style you can be pretty sure that partner doesn't have four spades (if he does, he will certainly also have six hearts and will pattern out with 3S over 2NT by responder anyway). So you don't need to bid 2S here (which would presumably show 4-5 or more in the blacks).

The advantage of this style is that if you do respond 1H-1S and then later establish a game force (often through an awkward call like 1H-1S-2H-3m or 1H-1S-2D-3C) partner can at least be sure that you have a fifth spade, which sometimes makes follow-ups easier.

There are definitely ways to improve 1H-1S auctions; for example in most of my partnerships I have cheap GF bids available and also ways to distinguish 3/4 card spade raises. We could for example bid 1H-1S-1N(diamonds)-3D(GF diamond raise) on this hand to reach the easy slam. Nonetheless even with this method I think it's often better to respond in clubs since that suit is very much stronger on this hand.

[the hog]

Adam: "If you accept that 1H-2C-2S need not show extras,"
Many, including myself do not accept that. Granted if you do accept it THAT particular problem is solved, but you create others further down the track.

Phil: This is where there is a difference in philosophy. My partners would expect long Cs for this bidding and may well support Cs on 3 cards. As I said, this is where I prefer a full realy structure.
However I guess you get the point, it is silly to make blanket statements as one poster did, without looking at the b. system as a whole and the partnership philosophy in uncontested auctions.

[MrAce]

 Phil, on 2013-December-28, 11:47, said:

Anyone that bids 1♠ needs some remedial education.

[the hog]

MrAce said:

1388371700[/url]' post='771144']

Another extremely intelligent post which does nothing to address any of the comments made in the thread.

[madongjun]

south 3D over 2H.

[Zelandakh]

 ArtK78, on 2013-December-24, 13:32, said:

So, my auction would start:

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♦ (intending to bid 4♣ over any 3 level call)

The problem with this approach is that 4♣ over a 3♥ bid from Opener sounds like a slam try in hearts rather than a natural call.

I am going to re-post my quick and dirty solution to the 1♠/2♣ debate that crops up very often here. The idea is just to play a 1♠ response as a forcing NT and then 1NT becomes GF with 4+ spades. With minor modifications you can now use exactly the same structure over a 1♥ opening as 1♠.

Of course the non-2/1 relay approach works too:

1♥ - 1♠ = INV+ relay
1NT = min without 4 spades
... - 2♣ = GF relay
3♦ = 2641
... - 3♥ = relay
4♣ = 4 controls
... - 6♦

Easy game!

[Cyberyeti]

 Phil, on 2013-December-28, 11:47, said:

Anyone that bids 1♠ needs some remedial education.

No they just need their partner to bid a 4 card minor in front of rebidding the 6 card major and there is then no issue.

Playing Acol it's absolutely routine to bid 1♠, if partner doesn't rebid a minor, he doesn't have one or has 7♥. If you are not playing 2/1 2♣ is horrible unless you want to play a 4-3 club fit some of the time when partner assumes you have 5.

As the problem specifies they're playing 2/1, I have no problem with 2♣, but to suggest 1♠ is terrible is just wrong.

[ArtK78]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-January-16, 08:16, said:

The problem with this approach is that 4♣ over a 3♥ bid from Opener sounds like a slam try in hearts rather than a natural call.

Huh?

So, if I bid three suits and don't support responder, I have made a slam try in responder's suit? That is certainly news to me.

[Zelandakh]

 ArtK78, on 2014-January-16, 09:28, said:

So, if I bid three suits and don't support responder, I have made a slam try in responder's suit?

Well the auction starts:

1♥ - 1♠;
2♥ - 3♦;
3♥

and you hold a slammy hand with heart support where you wanted to find the right strain before launching, some 5251 or whatever you think appropriate. What are you going to bid next? Playing 4♣ to cover these hands is great when they come up and bad when you hold the 3-suiter. But the real gain for this method is that it works as a meta-rule - the 4th suit at the 4 level is a slam try for partner's last suit if no forcing raise was available.

Of course I come from the wrong side of The Pond for 2/1 and its intricacies are still very much a mystery. For me it is obvious to rebid 2♦ with Opener's hand despite the anaemic diamond suit. Now if we want to come to clubs we can "check back" via ... - 2NT - 3♣ with a direct 3♣ being artificial. I realise this is practically the reverse of how 2/1 is played in America but is ingrained in the way I learned natural bidding - plus it actually works and appears, from the limited hand set I have seen via BBF, to have fewer special cases than the American approach. In other words, if you bid your suits below 2NT it is easy to both look for help in the fourth suit and find a fit there. If you bid your suits above 2NT there is usually not enough space for both things without making a serious commitment and losing out on some other hand type.

In any case, hopefully you can at least understand the logic to which I was referring now.