[Jinksy]

Assuming opener sometimes rebids as above with 3-card support, I often get frustrated with natural bidding here. You want an enquiry as to whether P has 3 or 4 cards and as to whether he has a max or min, and to be able to stop in 2N, and to be able to make a forcing bid, and to have good definition on your side-suit based game tries. Obviously something has to give.

What continuations do people use here? I’m looking for something relatively simple, with common principles regardless of which major you’ve been bidding, and ideally regardless of what length the in the suit the first bid showed.

[ArtK78]

I play a method that has gained significant support. I don't know if it has a name.

After 1x - 1M - 2M, 2NT is an artificial ask. Opener bids:

3♣ - minimum opening hand with 3 card support for partner's major.
3♦ - maximum opening hand with 3 card support.
3♥ - minimum opening hand with 4 card support.
3♠ - maximum opening hand with 4 card support.

The only drawback is that you can't play in 2NT, but that is a rather small target.

If the major suit is hearts, you can play that 2♠ is the asking bid (in which case 2NT is available for whatever you want it to be). I don't bother with this refinement.

[Zelandakh]

It depends a little bit on what you think of as simple. For a super-simple method Art's 3344 scheme is pretty much the standard. You can refine this a little bit by making the first step (3♣) a minimum and using a subsequent relay (3♦) to ask how many trumps. You can refine still further by bundling 2 hand types into the second response (3♦) and using another relay (3♥) to resolve that. There are several ways of doing this, an example being:

1♦ - 1♠; 2♠ - 2NT
==
3♣ = min with shortage
... - 3♦ asks (GF)
... - ... - 3♥ = 3 spades
... - ... - ... - 3♠ asks
... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = side void (4♣ asks)
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣ = singleton club
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = singleton heart
... - ... - 3♠ = 4 spades, side void (3NT asks)
... - ... - 3NT = singleton heart
... - ... - 4♣ = singleton club
3♦ = no shortage, 4 trumps (assumption here is that we only make a 3 card raise with a side shortage)
... - 3♥ asks
... - ... - 3♠ = min
... - ... - 3NT = extras, bal
... - ... - 4♣ = extras, 4252
3♥ = extras, 3 spades, shortage (GF)
... - 3♠ asks
... - ... - 3NT = side void (4♣ asks)
... - ... - 4♣ = singleton club
... - ... - 4♦ = singleton heart
3♠ = extras, 4 spades, side void (3NT asks)
3NT = extras, singleton heart
4♣ = extras, singleton club


As I recall there have been some truly intricate schemes posted on BBF in previous threads so you might also try running a search on the subject if you want to see a wider selection of possibilities.

[WellSpyder]

I play something that I regard as simpler than either of the above.

After 1x - 1M; 2M responder bids 2♠ or 2N (the first available bid) to ask. With 4-card support opener rebids 3M with a minimum and 4M with a maximum. With 3-card support he makes any other descriptive bid, including 2N or 3N.

[awm]

Here's what I play:

2nt: 4-card invite. Opener bids 3M with min and four, 4M max and four, pass min and three, makes the most descriptive call with max three (usually patterning by bidding four card suit in 5431 type).

3M: five or more invite

Non jump suit bid other than 3M: natural GF; opener bids 3M with four, 3nt with three and short/weak in responders second suit, raises second suit with 4-support and only 3M, or makes another descriptive call othwerwise.

[jgillispie]

3WGT as follows:

1m-1S-2S-

2N- Unspecified Short Suit (3C inquiry)
3C- Forced
3x- Short Suit (3S shows short C)
4x- Big Splinter (16-18)
3C- HSGT
3D- HSGT
3H- HSGT
3S- Trump Quality (looking for top honors)
4x- Splinter; 13-15

Super simple, easy to remember. Similar scheme applies to 1m-1H-2H-, only 2S is short suit relay

[ArtK78]

jgillispie, on 2014-February-13, 13:57, said:

3WGT as follows:

1m-1S-2S-

2N- Unspecified Short Suit (3C inquiry)
3C- Forced
3x- Short Suit (3S shows short C)
4x- Big Splinter (16-18)
3C- HSGT
3D- HSGT
3H- HSGT
3S- Trump Quality (looking for top honors)
4x- Splinter; 13-15

Super simple, easy to remember. Similar scheme applies to 1m-1H-2H-, only 2S is short suit relay

Except that you seem to be assuming a 4 card raise, or you are just ignoring the fact that the raise could be on 3 cards. Nothing in your scheme of game tries is aimed at determining whether partner raised on 3 cards.

[mike777]

KISS

We don't worry about it. We make a long or short suit game try and pard can accept or not or make her own game try.
Often but not always the more important issue is NOT 3 or 4 card support or min or max.

[rhm]

ArtK78, on 2014-February-13, 07:28, said:

I play a method that has gained significant support. I don't know if it has a name.

After 1x - 1M - 2M, 2NT is an artificial ask. Opener bids:

3♣ - minimum opening hand with 3 card support for partner's major.
3♦ - maximum opening hand with 3 card support.
3♥ - minimum opening hand with 4 card support.
3♠ - maximum opening hand with 4 card support.

The only drawback is that you can't play in 2NT, but that is a rather small target.

If the major suit is hearts, you can play that 2♠ is the asking bid (in which case 2NT is available for whatever you want it to be). I don't bother with this refinement.

My set of mainly natural continuations, except for 2M+1, which is artificial and forcing. Anything else up to 3♦ is not.

2M+1: Artificial and at least game invitational, but could be stronger. Almost always used by responder with more than 4 cards in the major, though it does not guarantee more than four cards. This avoids giving more information about responder's distribution, who is likely to declare and such a blueprint tends to help the defense more than opener. Opener will only return to the agreed major, either accepting or rejecting game with four card support and bid something else otherwise, which is typically not forcing. New suit bids thereafter by responder are forcing, since he may have a very strong hand.

2NT (over 2♥): Natural invitational, suggests 3NT with 3 card support, responder wants to declare notrump (otherwise 2M+1). Openers responses similar to above. 3NT shows a maximum with 3 card support or possibly 4333 with four card support.

3m (new suit): suggest this as a final contract. Responder has 4 cards in the major and his minor is longer (typically six cards). Opener will correct to the major only with four card support.

3m (opener's minor):suggest this as a final contract. Opener will correct to the major only with four card support.

3♥ (over 2♠): Natural, forcing; at least 5-4 in majors

So 3m by either side is always natural and and is a suggestion to play. It shows minimum length in the raised major.
I prefer this to ArtK78 responses, which are getting popular, but these and similar responses make it difficult to stop below 3M when that is only a weak 4-3 fit.

Rainer Herrmann

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the following may be of interest, not sure, if this structure
is identic, with one of the already posted ones.

http://bridgewinners.../spiral-raises/

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

Since that scheme features 3 card balanced raises quite prominently, how many raise with 3 card support and a balanced hand routinely? It is something I used to do a lot once upon a time but it seems unnecessary in these days of 20 thousand forms of Checkback. For the purposes of illustrating why the first step should have extra hands I assumed that we never raise with 3 card support and a balanced hand!

[rhm]

Zelandakh, on 2014-February-14, 05:28, said:

Since that scheme features 3 card balanced raises quite prominently, how many raise with 3 card support and a balanced hand routinely? It is something I used to do a lot once upon a time but it seems unnecessary in these days of 20 thousand forms of Checkback. For the purposes of illustrating why the first step should have extra hands I assumed that we never raise with 3 card support and a balanced hand!

We had this discussion before.
Checkback is generally only useful for game invitational or better hands.
The advantage of raising with 3 cards is not so much on those hands.
When you rebid 1NT the bidding will often end there.

Rainer Herrmann

[gordontd]

Here is a thread where this was discussed before.

[Siegmund]

A lot of folks in my area play the aforementioned "3-3-4-4" method. Personally I think it's a very wasteful method, as it's only a rather specific awkward unbalanced hand that routinely raises with 3 here (in my style). I am not sure it is worth catering to avoiding 4-3 fits at all; partner should only raise on 3 when he has a reason, believing he will get ruffs in the short hand, and while you probably do want a path to 3NT instead of 4M, I would gladly give up the possibility of 2NT or 3m.

[the hog]

WellSpyder, on 2014-February-13, 12:07, said:

I play something that I regard as simpler than either of the above.

After 1x - 1M; 2M responder bids 2♠ or 2N (the first available bid) to ask. With 4-card support opener rebids 3M with a minimum and 4M with a maximum. With 3-card support he makes any other descriptive bid, including 2N or 3N.

This is what I play as well.

[fromageGB]

mike777, on 2014-February-13, 18:08, said:

KISS

We don't worry about it. We make a long or short suit game try and pard can accept or not or make her own game try.
Often but not always the more important issue is NOT 3 or 4 card support or min or max.

KISS KISS
A raise is always 4 cards unless you have a shortage and are ruffing with a couple of low trumps - then just treat it as 4 card.