[benlessard]

inverting 1H and 1S responses after a 1D opening,

Im thinking something along these lines

1D-1H = 4S may have 4or5H

1D-1S =4H denies 4S unless GF

This would rightside more often. It would also make responder bid 1H more often than 1S giving you more overall space. It would allow a more frequent 1D-1H-1S start.


1D-1H-??

1S = either 4H or a 3card S raise (forcing)

1NT = denies 4H, denies hand willing to raise on 3s.

2C = nat denies 3S

2D = nat denies 3S

2H = good S raise

2S - minimum S raise.

all stronger bid will deny 3S.

1D--1S--??

1NT= denies 4H

2C/2D/2H = nat

2S = reverse D+S



Drawbacks

You loose the ability to stop in 1S after waht would be a natural 1D-1H-1S start, and loose precision when opener got D+S and responder got H but no S.

you allow 1D-1H-(x) to show heart overcall or (1S) as sandwich nt/raptor.

Instead of the natural 1D-1H-1S/1D-1H/2S You will be stuck to have only the reverse 1D-1S(showing H)-2S showing S with only 16+ strenght instead (reverse D+S) instead of pure strong jump shift.



Pros

Being always able to show or deny 3 cards spades support is an awesome plus.

Rightsiding more often.

Not sure, but I think you should be ahead when responder got both majors 54/55/45/44

[Zelandakh]

An alternative method you might consider is skip bid responses. The idea of this is to make the 1♥ response more common and create a low level forcing relay. So a 1♥ response simply denies 4 hearts. A 1♠ response shows 4 hearts and denies 4 spades; 1NT shows both majors and <GF; and 2♣ shows both majors and GF. I think this is better than 1♥ promising 4 spades - Opener is going to show spades if they have them anyway and there is plenty of space to find the fit. It seems like a reasonable approach to me although I have to do some more work on the details of the later auctions, particular after a 1M opening, before I release it as a full system (expect the e-book in 2030!).

[1eyedjack]

A claimed benefit for the OP method is that opener's 1S rebid only shows a 3 card suit. That benefit is lost in Zel's approach.

I also feel that a 1H response that denies H and says nothing about S is more vulnerable to intervention than a 1H response that shows S.

I offer no opinion on the overall relative net benefits (only because I have none, at least not right now)

[awm]

I don't think the siding thing is a real advantage. Opener's hand is typically a lot more known on these auctions; if you wind up playing in responder's major (the only place it really matters) then you know opener's degree of support, something about opener's diamond length, and a good idea of opener's maximum strength. This is a lot more than is typically known about responder's hand.

There is also a problem hand where responder has 5+♥/4♠ and opener has three hearts, where in standard bidding you can start 1♦-1♥-2♥ (for example) but here you start 1♦-1♥ (spades) and opener is in no hurry to show three-card hearts. This seems like enough of a loss to counteract the hands where responder has 5+♠/4♥ and you find a heart fit by bidding 1♦-1♥-1♠ that you might have trouble to find after a natural 1♦-1♠-2♦ auction (if opener is rebidding 1NT or strong enough to reverse you have no problem to find a 4-4 heart fit, and if opener has diamonds and clubs he probably doesn't have four hearts also).

Perhaps there is some advantage in treating 1♠ as a forcing rebid that includes some raises. But you can do this in natural bidding too via 1♦-1♥-1♠! (four spades or three hearts). Then 2♣ is a check-back showing either four spades or a good hand and opener's 2♦ shows four spades (after which 2♥ is a strong relay) or 2♥ shows three hearts (after which you can play whatever your normal methods are over a raise).

[straube]

Think you would need 1D-2H as 4+S/5H 0-9.

With natural responses, you are preempted by a 1S response but have 1D-1S, 2H to compensate (using 2H as a spade raise and not a reverse because I assume we're playing a limited system here)

With this, it goes 1D-1H and you now have 1S and 2H rebids for sorting out spade raises (because you seem to want 1S rebid as 2-way) but you are hurting a lot after 1D-1S (showing hearts) because you don't have any extra bids to show heart raises.

A side benefit of a natural 1H response is if it goes 1D P 1H dbl opener may pass with tolerance.

[benlessard]

If it goes 1D-1H-2S AP, 1D-1H-2S-GT-4S, 1D-1H-3S or splinter sequence and all the equivalent with hearts as trumps having the stronger hand declare is clearly worth something. IMO its not about hand disclosure its about getting a bonus trick at T1 from time to time.

In some 4th suit GF or xyz or jumpshift you may even be able to pick who will declare, having Kx,AQ or AQx,Kxx in the 4th suit is not so rare.



The 5H+4S is not a problem since its a canape situation. When opener denies 3S & 4H responder 2H automatically show 5.

1D-1H!
1NT-?? here you really need 5H to bid 2H since with 5S and 4H you can safely pass knowing for sure you dont have a fit. Note that its the same situation if opener rebid 2C or 2D.

1D-1H!
2D-2H = 4/5S+5H NF


the problem about not inverting and wanting to keep 1S as two way is you need the checkback otherwise..

1D-1H
1S-2S (1S showing 3H or 4S and responder raise to 2S but opener had 3H)
3H

While with the inverting you dont need the checkback. the equivalent
1D-1H!
1S-2H
2S-

opener doesnt have 4H so he correct to 2S. Yes you may play in 43 instead of 53 but you are at the 2 level.

[straube]

benlessard, on 2014-May-03, 18:45, said:

1D-1H!
2D-2H = 4/5S+5H NF

This doesn't feel right. A lot of folks won't play 1D-1S, 2D-2H as nf 5S/4+H because they're taking partner out of a 6-cd minor for an uncertain major suit fit, plus the 2H bid is so valuable as an inquiry that they want to force with it, natural or not. After 1D-1H!, 2D there's even less likelihood of a fit as opener has denied either 4-cd major so I think 2H should be forcing.

It's true my idea of 1D-2H! as nf Flannery gets there just quicker, but there's more upside at this point of this auction than after opener has shown the long diamond hand in the other.

benlessard, on 2014-May-03, 18:45, said:

opener doesnt have 4H so he correct to 2S. Yes you may play in 43 instead of 53 but you are at the 2 level.

Seems like this would happen a lot. Does opener only "show" 3-cd spades when holding suitable hands for a Moysian or with any hands?

Interesting idea and obviously has a lot of positives.

[benlessard]

After

1D-1H!
2D-??

Since opener quasi-denied 3S he is very likely to have at least 2H so that why bidding 2H NF and 3H GF is pretty safe. In standard 2H is forcing mostly because responder may have 4or5 hearts and you still need to check for a 5-3 S fit. But with my setup I see no real need to keep 2H forcing. Keeping 2H forcing is of course possible but I would try 2H as NF but constructive first, with a garbage hand I would just pass 2D for better or worse.

I think opener should rebid 1S with any 4H, and with all hand with 3S except 3343.

Note that 1D-1H-1S-1NT-2C could show 3244 or 3154.
However there is a glitch with
1D-1H
1S-1NT
2D (since it could be 3S or 4H). I think it should show show 6D+3S, with 6D+4H and min you would need to pass 1Nt (not cool but not a deal breaker imo)

I think the Moysian instead of 5-3 is only 3352/3361 vs 45??. I didnt find any other cases. If opener is 3343 it should go

1D-1H
1NT-2H (showing 5H)

Its possible that over the 1NT rebid a transfers scheme (Leong I think) could be better than xyz.