[diana_eva]

Just a voting poll Not a headache hand, I'm trying out the poll settings

IMPs, 3rd seat non-vul vs vul, you pick up this hand. 2/1 vanilla, forcing NT is off for passed hand. How do you plan to bid it?

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[gwnn]

1S then 3NT should about do it. I don't mind 2C either (I would mind with any other suit).

[aguahombre]

Doesn't seem to matter if Responder's 1NT is forcing or not. Our meaning of 3NT as a continuation should be the same...showing 6 Spades which Responder will convert holding 2 of them or place the contract in her own long suit knowing I have 2 or three of those..or maybe even PASS 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

Certainly a 1♠ opening when no Strong Two gadget is available. Over 1NT either 3♣ or 3NT depending on agreements. A good alternative to natural after the 1NT response are transfer rebids. In that case you would rebid 2♥ quite happily.

[hrothgar]

Absent special agreements, I'm going to open 1S and rebid 3♣

As Roth famously said, if I survive this bid...

[perko90]

I normally don't like to open 2♣ w/ a 5 loser hand, but I'll make an exception here. It at least passes the 2 Q's test and has plenty of offense and defense. 1♠ with a plan to JS to 3♣ is OK, but not great. It still doesn't get your shape across and I don't have the 3NT agreement (showing a 6-carder) that others have mentioned (maybe I should).

[diana_eva]

I didn't know about 3NT promising a 6th spade either. Is that common in 2/1 or it's just a partnership agreement for aguahombre ?

FWIW I gave the hand to GIB and it also chose 1S - 1N - 3N

At the table I opened 1S and jumped to 3C over partner's 1NT.

[gwnn]

Yep it's pretty common to have it show 6322/7222. With 5332 you can open or rebid 2NT. I know that there are people who like to bid 2NT with 18 and 3NT with 19 but we should try to avoid playing with those people*. With a singleton and a monster you can autosplinter. I disagree though that partner should correct to 4s just because he has a doubleton. I also disagree that he should pull often to his suit. Normally he will pass, not 'maybe even' pass.

*I vaguely remember that for some people who don't open 1NT with a 5 card major, 2NT then shows 16-17 or so. I don't like that either. I think better is then to have 2NT=17-19 and bid 2m with 15-16.

[the hog]

Open 1S and rebid 3NT. Would prefer to be playing a gadget, but........
I hate 3C with a passion by the way.

[diana_eva]

the hog, on 2014-May-08, 03:11, said:

...
I hate 3C with a passion by the way.

LOL I wasn't proud of it either, that's why I posted the hand

[Zelandakh]

diana_eva, on 2014-May-08, 04:47, said:

LOL I wasn't proud of it either, that's why I posted the hand

We need Justin back - he was one of the strongest supporters of the solution of making a jump shift into a 3 card minor. Traditionally the hog (and iirc Codo) were the posters most against this. Nothing to be ashamed of in a 3♣ rebid imho, is just a matter of agreements and style.

[diana_eva]

I learned about jumpshifts in a 3-carder here, but I didn't like it much on this particular hand because it is so flat and with points scattered all over. If 3NT can be used to show this hand I much prefer that, and save the fake jumpshift for more distributional hands, or hands with values concentrated in the bid suits.

[Trinidad]

A partner I play with occasionally would open this hand 2NT without blinking. That is one of the reasons I play with him occasionally.

Rik

[Zelandakh]

Trinidad, on 2014-May-08, 06:36, said:

A partner I play with occasionally would open this hand 2NT without blinking. That is one of the reasons I play with him occasionally.

Change the ♣J into the ♠J and he would be a regular partner then?

[kenrexford]

I am dealt a balanced 20-count with six spades. I have a lot of controls, and my spade trick source is great. My Qx in diamonds is the only real deduction. Thus, I value the hand as worth about 22 as a balanced hand. Expressing that with a 1♠ opening and 3NT rebid is, IMO, sick.

On top of that, the 1♠...3NT sequence essentially eliminates partner from the auction, as he likely will have no way to show anything useful.

Contrast this with a 3♣ rebid. That sequence at least allows partner to say something in a red suit or even show something in spades low enough to make some noise of some variety.

A 2NT opening sounds somewhat acceptable, except that the hand seems too strong for that. If I was going in that direction, I would start with 2♣ and then show the 22+ balanced hand, perhaps by way of Kokish.

My personal preference is 1♠...3♣.

[gwnn]

I think I referenced this many times but one of my favourite kenrexford stories had them missing a 6-5 heart fit after:
2NT*-3C**
3D***-3NT
*-with some 6322 to show values and notrumpiness
**-5332, not interested in a 5-3 fit
***-(!) partner clearly has 4 spades, I can safely hide my hearts and only mislead oops.

Or was it 1NT? It would make less sense since you can involve partner's judgement with transfer then 3NT.

edit: the man himself can set the record straight!

[diana_eva]

kenrexford, on 2014-May-08, 07:24, said:

I am dealt a balanced 20-count with six spades. I have a lot of controls, and my spade trick source is great. My Qx in diamonds is the only real deduction. Thus, I value the hand as worth about 22 as a balanced hand. Expressing that with a 1♠ opening and 3NT rebid is, IMO, sick.

On top of that, the 1♠...3NT sequence essentially eliminates partner from the auction, as he likely will have no way to show anything useful.

Contrast this with a 3♣ rebid. That sequence at least allows partner to say something in a red suit or even show something in spades low enough to make some noise of some variety.

A 2NT opening sounds somewhat acceptable, except that the hand seems too strong for that. If I was going in that direction, I would start with 2♣ and then show the 22+ balanced hand, perhaps by way of Kokish.

My personal preference is 1♠...3♣.

Not trying to argue here. I'm trying to understand if there is a somewhat standard treatment for this type of hand or it boils down to each player's judgement and experience. At the table I was not aware that a 3NT rebid would show a 6th spade, so 3♣ seemed the only solution to show pd I have such a strong hand yet failed to open 2♣. Maybe I don't understand how strong (or weak) a 3NT rebid should be. Is this hand is too strong for 3NT?

[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2014-May-08, 03:11, said:

Open 1S and rebid 3NT. Would prefer to be playing a gadget, but........
I hate 3C with a passion by the way.

This sums it up. The 3NT is not really a gadget. It is one of those inferential things which uses an idle bid to fill a hole. It has been around since the 1960's, definitely not one of Agua's oddities. The byproducts are:

1) We aren't tempted to bastardize a 2NT opening further than we already have.
2) Jump shift suit rebids are suit-oriented unbalanced hands, even if occasionally on 3.
3) We are forced to stop rebidding 3NT with a 2NT rebid.
4) We are forced to Open 1NT with 1NT openers, rather than Open 1x and start looking around for what to do next.

[steve2005]

I open 2♣ lighter than in standard and can stop in 2N, 3M or 4m

So I can open 2♣ and rebid 2♠

this hand makes game with 3 small spades and 2 Q's or Qx ♠ and another Q, amongst other hands where you could be playing in 1♠

[gwnn]

I don't know what's so strange about this. If you open 15-17 with 1NT and 20-21 with 2NT, you can have the following ladder:
12-14: 1S then pass
15-17: 1NT
18-19: 1S then 2NT
20-21: 2NT

So a 3NT rebid does not exist. It makes sense to show a better hand than 18-19, i.e. 20-ish with 6 spades and semi-balanced.

This seems to be much better than what other people play, namely 2NT as 17-18 and 3NT as 19 specifically with the same hand type.