[whereagles]

I didn't try for the big penalty because in my experience if the opening lead fails, opps may have anything from 7 to 9 tricks ready to roll. Overtricks when we might have 4S+1 is annoying lol.

Of course, in this case it's hard to misdefend

[ShirleyMqz]

In teams, the problem we're given here, I pass. If I'm wrong and I only get +500 instead of +620 it's not that big a deal, whereas if I get -100 instead of +500 it's a disaster.

If I'm playing matchpoints I bid 2H, transfer to spades because I play systems on over a double of 1NT - you treat the auction as if partner opened 1NT. Having transfers be on in this situation is even more useful than over a 1NT opening because you know partner is sitting over all the strength. Getting +500 instead of +620 at matchpoints will be a bad result, and it's more likely than getting +800.

[lrussell]

I smell a rodent. LH0=15-17 Partner 15-18 I have 8. They have a bunch of cards in the minors but RHO didn't run. What gives?

Regardless if everyone is honest RHO has nothing and I expect to make 4S about 80-90% of the time. To better that score I'm going to have to beat 1NT 4 tricks. Partner is unlikely to lead spades so might easily give up a trick on the go so +300 or +500 in 1NT-X would not be unexpected.

What if LHO with a legit 1NT runs to 2D with 5 of them and hits his partner with 5 diamonds as well. My partner with xx diamonds passes and RHO ups the ante with 5D. They found their sacrifice. A 4S bid would prevent this from happening.

To my way of thinking the safe conservative bid here at Imps is 4S. I might be passing up 800 or 1100 for 620. Que sera sera.

If something is rotten (which can't be ruled out), and LHO has psyched 1NT and I pass the double LHO might bid 4NT (pick a minor) or 5D. Where am I now if I pass?

[mikeh]

lrussell, on 2014-May-14, 20:24, said:

If something is rotten (which can't be ruled out), and LHO has psyched 1NT and I pass the double LHO might bid 4NT (pick a minor) or 5D. Where am I now if I pass?

I have played bridge for more than 40 years, with and against some very imaginative players. But you must play in a really wild game if you think that LHO is about to bid 4N!!!!! Wow.

[lrussell]

mikeh, on 2014-May-14, 21:23, said:

I have played bridge for more than 40 years, with and against some very imaginative players. But you must play in a really wild game if you think that LHO is about to bid 4N!!!!! Wow.

Well I'm just saying we should at least be alive to the possibility of a psyche.

[the hog]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-May-13, 19:13, said:

I already told you I misread it, I was also reading another intervention over 1N thread where it was a weak NT and got them confused.

TBF, do nothing other than make the opposing clubs 4-2 and you're only getting 500 although game is not then guaranteed your way.

TBEF I would not double with only 4 Cs.

[Trinidad]

whereagles, on 2014-May-13, 10:51, said:

1. I believe in getting 1100 on this as much as on promises by Herman van Rompuy

I suppose that means that you should give more credit to Herman van Rompuy.

Rik

[AyunuS]

I'd say go for 4♠. too many people just pass 3♠ so that doesn't really seem worth it and you can probably make 4♠ anyway. The problem for me with passing is that partner will probably lead from a long minor and give away an easy first trick in declarer's weak minor, and then declarer probably has enough winners between his stronger minor and possibly aces in the majors to win at least 4 tricks, and even with 4 tricks you'd get fewer points than game is worth. Neither option is a sure thing but I think the 620 is probably more likely than the 500 from passing.

[Cyberyeti]

lrussell, on 2014-May-14, 21:45, said:

Well I'm just saying we should at least be alive to the possibility of a psyche.

More embarrassing is where he has a running 6 card minor and the ace of the other minor which partner unsurprisingly leads from KQJ10x.

While I've never rebid 4N I do have previous for the auction 1N-P-P-2♠-4♣ (it finished X-P-P-P +710)

the hog, on 2014-May-15, 00:16, said:

TBEF I would not double with only 4 Cs.

I wasn't saying that, I was just saying make the 1N opener and his partner have 4-2 in the club suit rather than 3-3, now he probably (if you cash the Q♣ to see a signal) takes 4 tricks and you only get 500, leaving aside the nightmare of the doubler holding something like A, QJ10x, Axxx, AQxx where your hand is potentially dead against 1Nx and you're taking no more than 300 and possibly only 100 with 6 of either major (fortuitously) on (declarer would have Jx, Axx, KQJ10, KJ109 maybe with some of the 10s and 9s on the table in that case).

[whereagles]

Trinidad, on 2014-May-15, 00:24, said:

I suppose that means that you should give more credit to Herman van Rompuy.

Rik

ah.. but the hand didn't get to be played in 1NTx, so we'll never know ehehe

(that was a lucky escape... I wouldn't want to have to give Herman credit LOL )

[ShirleyMqz]

I'm surprised that I'm the only one who has mentioned transferring to spades rather than bidding them myself. Is playing "systems on" in this auction uncommon on BBO?

[helene_t]

yes, transfers are very uncommon.

In general, transfers have pros and cons. But in this situation, they don't have much pros. When partner doubles in direct seat, there is no particular reason to make partner declarer as he will be over the strong hand on the opening lead regardless. The other advantage of playing transfers, that it is easier to bid strong two-suited hands, isn't much of an issue either. Strong hands are rare in this situation, and almost all strong hands are happy to pass.

The main reason for not playing transfers (and Stayman) is that when you have a yarb with a 5-card suit you want to be able to take the double out and play at the 2-level.

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on 2014-May-15, 14:55, said:

yes, transfers are very uncommon.

In general, transfers have pros and cons. But in this situation, they don't have much pros. When partner doubles in direct seat, there is no particular reason to make partner declarer as he will be over the strong hand on the opening lead regardless. The other advantage of playing transfers, that it is easier to bid strong two-suited hands, isn't much of an issue either. Strong hands are rare in this situation, and almost all strong hands are happy to pass.

The main reason for not playing transfers (and Stayman) is that when you have a yarb with a 5-card suit you want to be able to take the double out and play at the 2-level.

vs strong NT and pard's double, what you said certainly seems to be the case.

However, vs weak NT and pard's strong double, I want all my toys for two-suiters, 5cM invites, etc. -- similar to (1x) 1NT. I even want a transfer to Opener's major as a checkback for a stop. On the rare occasion that I am broke with a long minor, RHO solves the problem for us. He bids a suit which becomes unclear to opener how much strength he has, or he doubles and I can use the XX for a bust with one minor or both majors.

This doesn't mean I disagree with you about how common or uncommon transfers are...on that point I don't particularly care.

[helene_t]

aguahombre, on 2014-May-15, 16:09, said:

However, vs weak NT and pard's strong double, I want all my toys for two-suiters, 5cM invites, etc. -- similar to (1x) 1NT. I even want a transfer to Opener's major as a checkback for a stop.

Opener's major? Transfers are quite common in response to 1NT overcalls but that is a different situation. OP is about (1NT)-x-(pass)-?. No suits have been bid.

I don't see why you would want to have a transfer followed by an invitational 2NT available here. With a 5M332 8-count, surely you are happy to pass the double?

I wouldn't count on RHO to solve our problems. When we are broke, RHO often has enough values to be happy not to run.

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on 2014-May-16, 03:48, said:

Opener's major? Transfers are quite common in response to 1NT overcalls but that is a different situation. OP is about (1NT)-x-(pass)-?. No suits have been bid.

I don't see why you would want to have a transfer followed by an invitational 2NT available here. With a 5M332 8-count, surely you are happy to pass the double?

I wouldn't count on RHO to solve our problems. When we are broke, RHO often has enough values to be happy not to run.

Yeh, I gulped when I noticed my "opener's major", thing..confusing a 1NT overcall with a Double of 1NT in my feeble brain.

Many pairs have an automatic redouble agreement which, if passed by RHO, can trigger a 2-level runout by us with a weak minor..thus not disturbing our direct advances of the double. Especially at unfavorable, sitting the double might not be a good idea when I hold a transfer & raise invite with a 6-card major; and I am back to even with all the pairs playing against Strong Nt who overcalled 1x with 1NT.

We might have an opportunity cost to these methods, but not a real loss unless the field (or our partners at teams) also employ a weak NT.