[Michael000]

Taking on board advice in another thread I did some reading on defence conventions to a weak 1NT opening. As is usual in the world of Bridge there are very many options and being as we are YOU will believe that the one you use is the best.

I have formed the view from my experience and reading that Astro is the conventions used by most. I have seen this spelt in different ways and then I discovered an article which suggested that Astro, Aspro, and Asptro aren't different spellings but three different conventions! And, further suggesting that all three are flawed suggesting that . . . The weakness in both Astro and Aspro (and, to a lesser extent, Asptro) is that you end up at the three level when your best fit happens to be in the "wrong" major. This is because all three conventions use a conventional response of 2NT to enquire as to the over-caller's second suit. And, that this problem can be avoided in Aspro if, opposite partner's 2C (showing hearts and any other) you make 2S a non forcing second suit enquiry. The Aspro bidder can pass if his second suit is spades.

All that said, at a point in the past, over diner on a Cruise ship a fellow dinner explained to me a simple system she'd been taught. I can recall (through a haze of red wine) thinking "I must remember that" and of course I can't remember it! What was it?

[Jinksy]

Quote

I have formed the view from my experience and reading that Astro is the conventions used by most.

You're giving away your location I don't think it sees much play outside the UK. Could be wrong though, over a weak NT specifically.

I'm a fan (though I wouldn't strongly argue that it's best) of simple Landy. Two-suited bids that push you up to the 3 level for a part score seem like you'd have done as well to play in the five card suit at the two level, much of the time, and being able to overcall a nat 2♦ is worth something.

MickyB has a system I keep meaning to try out with a willing P. I forget the details, but 2♣ is something like 3+ spades and another suit.

ETA, found it (his description):

Quote

it's a cross between Aspro and Landy
dbl = pens, 2C = 3+S4+H, 2D = S+minor, 2M natural, 2N = 5H5minor decent hand
Everyone hears about the 2C bid and thinks it is ridiculous, but if you just think of it as "hearts and another but promising at least three spades" you can see it can't compare badly with Aspro [on the hands you are allowed to bid it on]
4441, 3442 can overcall 2C and then pass the 2D relay
3532 can overcall 2C and just hope pard is happy in 2H or 2S [which he normally is]
basically, it lets you overcall on way more hands than multi-landy, and it gets you to the right contract more often than astro variants


2H over 2D is a forcing enquiry for five-card suit
2D over 2C is a NF enquiry for five-card suit [if you have one]
2C:2D, 2H:2S is pass-or-correct for the second suit
hint: if you play in any 3-3 spade fits you are doing it wrong.

[mgoetze]

I think it is generally agreed that against a weak NT you want double to be penalty. (Well there are also some proponents of a defense called Lionel or something like that where double shows 4 spades but could also kind of be penalty...)

The next consideration is that you will want a bid to show both majors. Given that double is taken, this leaves 3 obvious choices: 2♣, 2♦ and 2♥. In my opinion, 2♣ is clearly the best, as I want advancer to be able to ask for the longer major (with 2♦) if he has equal length. 2♥ is also reasonable, and 2♦ is clearly the worst.

This leads to my most basic recommendation for a NT defense: Landy. The Landy defense is simply DBL for penalties, 2♣ for the majors, and 2♦ and higher all natural.

I myself prefer a more advanced version called Multi-Landy. DBL is for penalties, 2♣ for the majors, as above. 2♦ shows a 6 card suit in either major, and 2♥/♠ shows 5 cards in that suit with 4 cards in either minor on the side, and finally 2NT shows both minors.

Admittedly, one of the reasons I like this defense is that it is essentially the same as my preferred defense to Strong NT (Woolsey, which only changes the meaning of double), which is much more common here on the continent.

[gnasher]

Astro, Aspro and Asptro are all different. The Wikipdia articles describe them quite well:
http://en.wikipedia....ptro_convention
http://en.wikipedia....stro_convention
http://en.wikipedia....spro_convention

With all of these, you should never end up in three of a major unless you want to be there, although you may sometimes play in the wrong major at the two level.

The most common variant in the UK is Asptro, in the variant where you show the shorter major when you have both.


Multilandy has a significant flaw for constructive purposes: the ambiguity of the 2♦ overcall can be exploited by the opponents bidding three of a minor (or Lebensohl) over it. That's more of a problem after a weak notrump, because you're more likely to want to bid constructively.

[Jinksy]

My beef with multiLandy is that maybe 4 times out of 5, after 2M, you get passed out, or at least play in that major, and I doubt more than 1 time in 10 you actually play in overcaller's minor. Now you've leaked far more info to the defence than a straight 2M bid would have given (if it could be made on 5 cards), including making it slightly easier for them to double (or occasionally judge to compete over it).

[mgoetze]

Jinksy, on 2014-December-29, 09:32, said:

My beef with multiLandy is that maybe 4 times out of 5, after 2M, you get passed out, or at least play in that major, and I doubt more than 1 time in 10 you actually play in overcaller's minor. Now you've leaked far more info to the defence than a straight 2M bid would have given (if it could be made on 5 cards), including making it slightly easier for them to double (or occasionally judge to compete over it).

Eh... overcalling on a 5332 shape is rarely a good idea, therefore you usually have a 4-card side suit, and since you have a different call to show 5-4 in the majors...

Of course if you have 5- and 6-card majors in the same overcall it is different but there are a bunch of different reasons why that is flawed.

I think this "leak" is an extremely minor point.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2014-December-29, 08:27, said:

Multilandy has a significant flaw for constructive purposes: the ambiguity of the 2♦ overcall can be exploited by the opponents bidding three of a minor (or Lebensohl) over it. That's more of a problem after a weak notrump, because you're more likely to want to bid constructively.

Fair enough, though of course opps will sometimes stay silent. As I said I mostly play against Strong NT.

[barmar]

For many years I played DONT over strong NT -- it's about as simple as they get while still allowing you to show any 2-suiter, and you can always play on the 2 level unless partner insists on bidding.

For the past few years I've switched to Meckwell as my preference. It's only slightly more complicated, and the only time you force to the 3 level is when you have both minors.

[mgoetze]

barmar, on 2014-December-29, 12:51, said:

For many years I played DONT over strong NT -- it's about as simple as they get while still allowing you to show any 2-suiter, and you can always play on the 2 level unless partner insists on bidding.

Yeah and it's pretty awful over weak NT.

[barmar]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-29, 13:00, said:

Yeah and it's pretty awful over weak NT.

Agreed. That's why I said I play it over strong NT.

With my regular partner we now play Meckwell over both, only because he doesn't want to have to remember two different defenses, and I like to be accomodating.

[The_Badger]

hi Michael. When I used to play competitively I used with my regular partner Pin Point Astro against the Weak NT. It was specific and uncomplicated. Basically it is:-

2♣ = ♣ + ♥
2♦ = ♦ + ♥
2♥ = ♥ + ♠
2♠ = ♠ + either ♣ or ♦
Dbl = penalties 16+ at least

However, the key to making ANY overcall over any type of opening 1NT hand is the range and the agreed suit quality, and the balancing range too. We agreed that you had to be at least 5-5 with a minimum 11HCP count, or 5-4 and a tad stronger with the 4 card suit having two honours at least.

Too many players love their conventions, but do not respect them, commonly overcalling a 1NT opening bid with poor cards. It might sound obvious to say this but an opening 1NT is very specific, even a weak NT, so overcalling whatever your methods has to be disciplined. The partner of an opening 1NT opener is in a prime position to exploit any mishaps or misdemeanours

[fromageGB]

Michael000, on 2014-December-29, 07:07, said:

All that said, at a point in the past, over diner on a Cruise ship a fellow dinner explained to me a simple system she'd been taught. I can recall (through a haze of red wine) thinking "I must remember that" and of course I can't remember it! What was it?

If you thought your dinner was explaining a bridge convention you surely were drinking too much wine. But for a simple one, I much prefer (at matchpoints) X for both majors and the rest natural, with penalty X at IMPs and 2♣ for the majors.

[helene_t]

I am not convinced that you have to play penalty doubles. Especially if weak nt is rare in your area and you therefore won't make it a high priority to discuss requirements for doubles and what you do after they escape.

Profitable doubles are not very frequent. And sometimes you help them to a making minor suit contract. And you lose on the hands where you can't use woolsey or whatever a double would normally mean.

Obviously you need to play penalty doubles against third seat notrump openings if you play against opps who realize that you otherwise give them a free psych position.

[Michael000]

The_Badger, on 2014-December-30, 06:19, said:

hi Michael. When I used to play competitively I used with my regular partner Pin Point Astro against the Weak NT. It was specific and uncomplicated. Basically it is:-

Thanks that's helpful I'll give it some thought.

[Michael000]

helene_t, on 2014-December-30, 12:45, said:

I am not convinced that you have to play penalty doubles. Especially if weak nt is rare in your area and you therefore won't make it a high priority to discuss requirements for doubles and what you do after they escape.

Not sure I agree with you.

I have righty or wrongly formed the view that the majority of the members of this forum are not in the UK and that they play a system that includes a strong NT. You, are in the UK and unless you are in an unusual environment I presume that most of your members play Acol wknt? Acol wknt is by nature weak and vulnerable to being thrashed and, doubled vulnerable, at great expense.

[mgoetze]

Michael000, on 2014-December-30, 14:02, said:

I have righty or wrongly formed the view that the majority of the members of this forum are not in the UK and that they play a system that includes a strong NT. You, are in the UK and unless you are in an unusual environment I presume that most of your members play Acol wknt? Acol wknt is by nature weak and vulnerable to being thrashed and, doubled vulnerable, at great expense.

You are right to have the opinion that most members of this forum are not in the UK but you are wrong if you believe that an Acol Weak NT should be defended differently than a 5-card major or strong club Weak NT (which I'll bet you've never faced).

helene_t, on 2014-December-30, 12:45, said:

I am not convinced that you have to play penalty doubles. Especially if weak nt is rare in your area and you therefore won't make it a high priority to discuss requirements for doubles and what you do after they escape.

Profitable doubles are not very frequent. And sometimes you help them to a making minor suit contract. And you lose on the hands where you can't use woolsey or whatever a double would normally mean.

The problem with playing Woolsey against Weak NT is that you will be stuck for a bid on 4432 and 5332 hands that need to get into the auction (but would have been content to pass against a strong NT). You can of course fake a double on 2/3 of the 4432 hands but the others are a real stretch. Meanwhile if you have a 5m4M hand playing Multilandy, a borderline penalty double might work out, and if you are too weak partner still has a chance to act.

[fromageGB]

Michael000, on 2014-December-30, 14:02, said:

You, are in the UK and unless you are in an unusual environment I presume that most of your members play Acol wknt? Acol wknt is by nature weak and vulnerable to being thrashed and, doubled vulnerable, at great expense.

I am in the UK and prefer not to play a penalty double against the common weak NT, at matchpoints. Yes, it is vulnerable to being thrashed, but as helene_t correctly pointed out, it also allows them to play in a 2m contract that they could not otherwise reach, or find a playable 4-4 or 4-3 fit.

The size of the penalty is immaterial. Winning +800 once in a blue moon is not as good as the more frequent small gains you may get for some other use of the call, such as -50 for a natural 2♣ compared with a -90 for passing out (if 2♣ would otherwise be conventional).

Of course at IMPs the fairly rare 800 is worth a lot more than a more frequent 40. Here, as in many instances, different methods and treatments come to the fore.

A further point worth remembering is that if you pass with a balanced 17, not only will they not be able to escape, but they will sometimes get fewer tricks than normal because the expectation of eg "one out of two finesses is 75%" falls down when you have all the undisclosed strength. +100 or +200 may be worth almost as many matchpoints as a successful penalty double.

[Jinksy]

fromageGB, on 2014-December-30, 14:58, said:

I am in the UK and prefer not to play a penalty double against the common weak NT, at matchpoints. Yes, it is vulnerable to being thrashed, but as helene_t correctly pointed out, it also allows them to play in a 2m contract that they could not otherwise reach, or find a playable 4-4 or 4-3 fit.

It's pretty rare not to have a forcing pass over their 2m if you've doubled their weak NT. I don't know anyone who's discussed it who doesn't.

[Jinksy]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-29, 11:04, said:

Eh... overcalling on a 5332 shape is rarely a good idea, therefore you usually have a 4-card side suit, and since you have a different call to show 5-4 in the majors...

Of course if you have 5- and 6-card majors in the same overcall it is different but there are a bunch of different reasons why that is flawed.

I think this "leak" is an extremely minor point.

My impression is different, but I guess let's disagree for now, and I'll mentally mark it as something that should be testable on BBO.

[gnasher]

Jinksy, on 2014-December-30, 17:28, said:

It's pretty rare not to have a forcing pass over their 2m if you've doubled their weak NT. I don't know anyone who's discussed it who doesn't.

I prefer not to play a forcing pass in that situation.