[wclucas42]

So this hand appeared at last night's game. I admit I am not completely up to speed on balancing. So how would people approach this, first bid, with planned follow up?

Match Points

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All I can say is we didn't find the best contract and it was my fault. Worried 2NT might be considered unusual and not sure how to follow up after a double, I bid 1 NT. In retrospect I think I should have doubled planning to bid 2 NT. I chose the No Trump bid because East didn't support spades, which worried me partner might have passed with some spade strength and would bid NT after the double exposing my tenaces in dummy.

A screen cap of the complete hand can be found here: http://1drv.ms/1K9wrSr

the complete auction went...

Spoiler

Match Points

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Thanks,

Bill

[Cyberyeti]

I know we play 2N as strong balanced and I think most people do around here.

[Jinksy]

It's one of the few things I'd call 'standard' to play 2N as natural here, though ranges differ. I think most strong players play 1N as about 11-16 (I don't know how they deal with this, it's just the impression I've formed from seeing a few cards), so on normal overcalling logic it would seem appropriate to play X-then-NT as about 17-18 or 17-19, then a direct 2N as the next step.

(that is, that's what I'd assume undiscussed. Don't know if it's a sensible agreement)

[PhantomSac]

Jinksy, on 2015-April-23, 12:13, said:

It's one of the few things I'd call 'standard' to play 2N as natural here, though ranges differ. I think most strong players play 1N as about 11-16 (I don't know how they deal with this, it's just the impression I've formed from seeing a few cards), so on normal overcalling logic it would seem appropriate to play X-then-NT as about 17-18 or 17-19, then a direct 2N as the next step.

(that is, that's what I'd assume undiscussed. Don't know if it's a sensible agreement)

You assume correctly

[wclucas42]

Thanks for the responses.

I would assume systems on after a balancing no trump bid?

[Jinksy]

PhantomSac, on 2015-April-23, 12:30, said:

You assume correctly

Then this seems as good a time as any to ask how you continue after the wide-ranging NT? Do you have special responses to distinguish different strengths of invite? Or do you just bid game/sign off(inc pass) as frequently as possible?

[kuhchung]

I've seen range stayman, but in practice I've always passed/been passed after the balancing 1N

[PhantomSac]

Jinksy, on 2015-April-23, 15:30, said:

Then this seems as good a time as any to ask how you continue after the wide-ranging NT? Do you have special responses to distinguish different strengths of invite? Or do you just bid game/sign off(inc pass) as frequently as possible?

Just change the resposnes to stayman, I have seen people play 2 range and 3 range (2 level with min, 2N with max is 2 levels, 2 level with min 2N with medium 3 level with max is 3 ranges). You can add a lot more depending on if they open a minor or a major, for instance if they open 1H then I think you should play 2D and 2S are min, 2H is medium with 4 spades (so you can still stop in 2S after garbage stayman if partner has 4S and 5D less than invite for instance), 2N with max.

Over the majors, this messes up your garbage stayman somewhat but that hand type is not that common anyways and playing 3D or 3S might not be a disaster. Over the minors I don't play 3 range because I don't play 11-16 (for instance I think over a 1C opener and a balancing 1N, 11-14 is a totally fine range because you will often be able to get to X and bid 1N with 15-17 or w/e, obviously over 1S if you X you commit your side to 2N hence the very wide range for the balancing 1N over majors).

[Cyberyeti]

Jinksy, on 2015-April-23, 15:30, said:

Then this seems as good a time as any to ask how you continue after the wide-ranging NT? Do you have special responses to distinguish different strengths of invite? Or do you just bid game/sign off(inc pass) as frequently as possible?

The only time I played it as wide ranging, we also played a wide range opening NT so had system for it (4 card inv+ transfers etc, 2♣ as range/shape enq).

I play now protective 1N 11-14, x/1N 15-17(bad 18), 2N 19(good 18)-20

[PhantomSac]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-April-23, 18:02, said:

I play now protective 1N 11-14, x/1N 15-17(bad 18), 2N 19(good 18)-20

How do you plan to double and bid 1N after they open 1S?

[Cyberyeti]

PhantomSac, on 2015-April-23, 20:21, said:

How do you plan to double and bid 1N after they open 1S?

That's the general scheme over 1 bids, obviously it varies over 1♠.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-April-24, 00:37, said:

That's the general scheme over 1 bids, obviously it varies over 1♠.

It's for this reason that many play the upper range of the 1NT protect as higher over spades and often also over hearts than the minors.

[wanoff]

PhantomSac, on 2015-April-23, 17:10, said:

Just change the resposnes to stayman, I have seen people play 2 range and 3 range (2 level with min, 2N with max is 2 levels, 2 level with min 2N with medium 3 level with max is 3 ranges). You can add a lot more depending on if they open a minor or a major, for instance if they open 1H then I think you should play 2D and 2S are min, 2H is medium with 4 spades (so you can still stop in 2S after garbage stayman if partner has 4S and 5D less than invite for instance), 2N with max.

Over the majors, this messes up your garbage stayman somewhat but that hand type is not that common anyways and playing 3D or 3S might not be a disaster. Over the minors I don't play 3 range because I don't play 11-16 (for instance I think over a 1C opener and a balancing 1N, 11-14 is a totally fine range because you will often be able to get to X and bid 1N with 15-17 or w/e, obviously over 1S if you X you commit your side to 2N hence the very wide range for the balancing 1N over majors).

Seems reasonable - presumably if you allow garbage Stayman after 1M, this is the only 'medium' type possible. What about taking some of the weight off Stayman by using the cuebid and transfers into their suit ?

[helene_t]

Is it really a winning strategy to balance with 11over 1m? With a doubleton unbid minor you can double and with a doubleton major I would just pass, opps are likely to have a better fit there.

[wbartley]

I would double and bid 2N over any minimum suit response. That should show a good 20-21. I would bid 3N over a 1N response, obviously. Your partner isn't broke so you're probably not in too much trouble in 2N. Standard on here might be that 2N is natural but why not use the more flexible double? Bidding 2N directly pretty much guarantees you aren't going to defend and I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather defend a two level contract than play 2N opposite a queen.

[karlson]

PhantomSac, on 2015-April-23, 17:10, said:

Just change the resposnes to stayman, I have seen people play 2 range and 3 range (2 level with min, 2N with max is 2 levels, 2 level with min 2N with medium 3 level with max is 3 ranges). You can add a lot more depending on if they open a minor or a major, for instance if they open 1H then I think you should play 2D and 2S are min, 2H is medium with 4 spades (so you can still stop in 2S after garbage stayman if partner has 4S and 5D less than invite for instance), 2N with max.

Over the majors, this messes up your garbage stayman somewhat but that hand type is not that common anyways and playing 3D or 3S might not be a disaster. Over the minors I don't play 3 range because I don't play 11-16 (for instance I think over a 1C opener and a balancing 1N, 11-14 is a totally fine range because you will often be able to get to X and bid 1N with 15-17 or w/e, obviously over 1S if you X you commit your side to 2N hence the very wide range for the balancing 1N over majors).

Ok, I'm going to admit it. I have never understood the concept of range stayman and the 2n response.

If it goes 2c-2n showing a max, responder will never pass (after all, he was going to at least invite opposite a minimum). There's no room to reinvite, so you're forced to game. Which means that you would have accomplished precisely the same thing by bidding 2d (or 2M) and accepting any invite. If responder was thinking about inviting slam opposite a max, then yes, this helps, but a hand that passed over the opening bid will probably be inviting slam approximately never.

Now, if you can show a max with 4 in the other major at 2M then that does help, because now responder can invite opposite the max. Also you get to play 2 instead of 3 when 1N bidder has a min and responder has an invite. So that's a very neat idea, thanks. But I still don't understand the point of the 2N response.

Edit: Ok, playing 2c-2n showing a max, you might choose to stop in 2M opposite a min. But that's the only gain I see.

Am I missing something?

[zillahandp]

Dble the bid nts would show this sort of strength

[karlson]

karlson, on 2015-April-24, 15:28, said:

Now, if you can show a max with 4 in the other major at 2M then that does help, because now responder can invite opposite the max. Also you get to play 2 instead of 3 when 1N bidder has a min and responder has an invite. So that's a very neat idea, thanks. But I still don't understand the point of the 2N response.

Actually, why not play this (2 of their major shows a max with 4 in our major) also over direct 1N overcalls? Seems like a good idea to me.

[lycier]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-April-23, 11:43, said:

I know we play 2N as strong balanced and I think most people do around here.

Same do I.

[Vampyr]

wclucas42, on 2015-April-23, 11:28, said:

So this hand appeared at last night's game. I admit I am not completely up to speed on balancing. So how would people approach this, first bid, with planned follow up?

Worried 2NT might be considered unusual and not sure how to follow up after a double

I guess this hand was played online. In this case it is best to use one of the pre-loaded CCs available, and then you won't have problems like this.

Had the hand been played in real life, you may have had the chance on.y to agree on your opening 1NT range and how long your majors were. In a situation like this I think you should be able to assume some basic agreements. "Everybody" plays 2NT natural here, so I think that it should be reasonably safe to try it, especially because you realised that there was no other way to show this hand-type,