[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-26, 07:45, said:

Ken,
Why the Democrats have lost those voters is a big question that would take multiple volumes to address. But a large part is structural - the Republicans operate in lockstep so they have a self re-enforcing message while Democrats are a conglomerate who often disagree among themselves. Lies and misinformation are most effective when repeated continually.

My point? Change requires a kernel of truth to penetrate denial. How to pierce the right wing bubble to plant those seeds is the question.

One final thought: Ta Nihisi Coates showed in The Atlantic that Trump support came from whites across all education and economic strata.

It is true that people sometimes resist accepting the truth. Very true. All of us. It is also true that sometimes people resist seeing things my way because they have a different outlook. What is truth? Didn't someone ask that a couple of thousand years ago? Probably in Latin.


Social distance, both from covid and from technology, is part of the problem (as has often been noted). Still thinking of my childhood days, my mother and her friend May would sit in the kitchen discussing the problems of life. They would disagree, they would work through it, they would open another beer. Seemed to work pretty well.

I was thinking of that yesterday when I went to Starbucks. For the first time in over a year, I bought my coffee and scone and then instead of taking it home I sat at an outside table. Well, this led to just one brief conversation with one person, but it's something. I am thinking I might repeat this two or three times a week, see what happens. It would be nice to chat with someone and have no idea who he voted for.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2021-May-26, 10:10, said:

It is true that people sometimes resist accepting the truth. Very true. All of us. It is also true that sometimes people resist seeing things my way because they have a different outlook. What is truth? Didn't someone ask that a couple of thousand years ago? Probably in Latin.


Social distance, both from covid and from technology, is part of the problem (as has often been noted). Still thinking of my childhood days, my mother and her friend May would sit in the kitchen discussing the problems of life. They would disagree, they would work through it, they would open another beer. Seemed to work pretty well.

I was thinking of that yesterday when I went to Starbucks. For the first time in over a year, I bought my coffee and scone and then instead of taking it home I sat at an outside table. Well, this led to just one brief conversation with one person, but it's something. I am thinking I might repeat this two or three times a week, see what happens. It would be nice to chat with someone and have no idea who he voted for.

Truth was not the best word to use - let's try facts. Unless a country can agree on the validity of a governing set of facts, there can be no meaningful discussions. Or, to put it another way, with one side delusional concerning reality, why bother?

[y66]

Then She Asked Me About Benghazi by Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to Barack Obama, in The Atlantic.

Quote

I went to Harpers Ferry seeking escape, and discovered how far our shared reality has fractured.

[Winstonm]

 y66, on 2021-May-26, 18:33, said:

Then She Asked Me About Benghazi by Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to Barack Obama, in The Atlantic.

I am shocked Ben didn’t credit the W/C posters as the inspiration for his book.😎

[pilowsky]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-26, 21:10, said:

I am shocked Ben didn't credit the W/C posters as the inspiration for his book.😎

If we appoint you Editor, will you write them up and submit them for publication?

[kenberg]

 y66, on 2021-May-26, 18:33, said:

Then She Asked Me About Benghazi by Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to Barack Obama, in The Atlantic.

I enjoyed this a lot but as I read it I was thinking "I wonder what her version of the conversation would be?". I also wondered whether she still had her job. I can be chatty. I mentioned on the covid thread that on a recent visit to the dentist Il learned that the woman cleaning my teeth had gotten divorced a few months before covid, and now was about to go out on her first date since her divorce, some two years ago. She was very ready for this. But I did not learn her political views. Once, eating at a restaurant, the waitress was a former student. in an undergraduate course and we chatted a bit. She had her degree, and she had done well on the exams needed to become a high school teacher. But she was making good money as a waitress and wasn't sure she wanted to quit. It was a moderately upscale restaurant, she was good at her job, she was attractive, I imagine the tips were pretty good. Again, I did not learn her political views. He says "The town was cold and empty, and that's precisely what I wanted. " And the way he describes the initial conversation it seems she was pushing for information about him and he was giving very brief answers that would not encourage further inquiry. She was not the owner, she was an employee, and pushing this hard on a customer and then getting into politics seems like a good way to lose a job.

The other thing that came to mind was a story I have told before about a conversation I had with my mother when I was 11. The Korean War had started in June that year, I was following it daily in the paper, my mother was explaining to me that all wars are about oil. I argued that I did not think there was oil in Korea. Her response was simple and conclusive "They are fighting there, there is oil there". Lack of careful research to draw a conclusion is not a new phenomenon.

But yes, very ntersetnig.

[Winstonm]

I usually avoid personal anecdotes as I feel it is impossible to extrapolate to a huge and varied society from a single isolated incident. Like everything, though, there are exceptions. Ken points one out with the story about his mother, wars, and oil. Ignoring facts so as not to discredit a belief is common to us all, even those of us who try to be aware of our own foibles in that regard and compensate.

From my own file of personal anecdotes, and pertaining to Ken's question of the view of the conversation from the other side, one of the more consistent occurrences I've found is that the introduction of Trump or other current or past right wing memes comes from the supporter of Trump or believer of the memes. And unlike the author, my distaste is so great at that point all I can do is walk away - basically to un-engage in order to dampen the helplessness I feel.

For about the thousandth time, my sister-in-law (who supported Trump) made a throwaway comment in a Zoom meeting with us the other day, and as usual this was a right wing meme, this time that no one wanting to work when the government is paying them $300 to stay home. Suffice it to say, whenever I have been in their house the television has been tuned to Fox and when I rode in their car I got an earful of Rush Limbaugh.

For some people it seems, grudges are impossible to let go.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 08:27, said:

I usually avoid personal anecdotes as I feel it is impossible to extrapolate to a huge and varied society from a single isolated incident. Like everything, though, there are exceptions. Ken points one out with the story about his mother, wars, and oil. Ignoring facts so as not to discredit a belief is common to us all, even those of us who try to be aware of our own foibles in that regard and compensate.

From my own file of personal anecdotes, and pertaining to Ken's question of the view of the conversation from the other side, one of the more consistent occurrences I've found is that the introduction of Trump or other current or past right wing memes comes from the supporter of Trump or believer of the memes. And unlike the author, my distaste is so great at that point all I can do is walk away - basically to un-engage in order to dampen the helplessness I feel.

For about the thousandth time, my sister-in-law (who supported Trump) made a throwaway comment in a Zoom meeting with us the other day, and as usual this was a right wing meme, this time that no one wanting to work when the government is paying them $300 to stay home. Suffice it to say, whenever I have been in their house the television has been tuned to Fox and when I rode in their car I got an earful of Rush Limbaugh.

For some people it seems, grudges are impossible to let go.

About gaming the system: Some do. I have known people that do. But surely the rich are the ones that do it big time. Sometimes the proper word might be coping with the system. I retired (well, sort of) when I was 65. There was an article in The Faculty Voice ( a campus publication by the faculty) by a guy who retired in his 70s and found that his retirement income would have been larger if he had retired earlier. How can this be? Trust me, it can, and it seemed to apply to me. My thinking was "Ok, if people are willing to pay me to stop working I guess I will do that". I continued anyway (I had not intended to do that but it worked out well) for another 8 or 9 years, but in a different capacity.

So maybe your sister-in-law and you could agree that how the rules are set up can influence behavior and not always for the better.

And then maybe she would even agree to forego Limgbaugh when you are in her car. I have this great CD of Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong but the trumpet can get pretty loud at times and it bothers Becky so I stick to The Mamas and the Papas or Peggy Lee etcwhen she is riding with me.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2021-May-27, 09:12, said:

About gaming the system: Some do. I have known people that do. But surely the rich are the ones that do it big time. Sometimes the proper word might be coping with the system. I retired (well, sort of) when I was 65. There was an article in The Faculty Voice ( a campus publication by the faculty) by a guy who retired in his 70s and found that his retirement income would have been larger if he had retired earlier. How can this be? Trust me, it can, and it seemed to apply to me. My thinking was "Ok, if people are willing to pay me to stop working I guess I will do that". I continued anyway (I had not intended to do that but it worked out well) for another 8 or 9 years, but in a different capacity.

So maybe your sister-in-law and you could agree that how the rules are set up can influence behavior and not always for the better.

And then maybe she would even agree to forego Limgbaugh when you are in her car. I have this great CD of Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong but the trumpet can get pretty loud at times and it bothers Becky so I stick to The Mamas and the Papas or Peggy Lee etcwhen she is riding with me.

I think you are on to something with advice to seek common ground no matter how inconsequential it may seem . Only an individual will change his mind- you cannot change it for him. As I have said previously, the best we can hope to do is plant a seed and hope cognitive dissonance grows from that.

[johnu]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 08:27, said:

For about the thousandth time, my sister-in-law (who supported Trump) made a throwaway comment in a Zoom meeting with us the other day, and as usual this was a right wing meme, this time that no one wanting to work when the government is paying them $300 to stay home. Suffice it to say, whenever I have been in their house the television has been tuned to Fox and when I rode in their car I got an earful of Rush Limbaugh.

I'm sure nobody on the right fringe pointed out that there were 7+ million jobs that were unfilled prior to the start of the Covid pandemic. And most of those jobs are in low paying, part-time service jobs like fast food restaurants, etc.

U.S. labor shortage? Unlikely. Here’s why

Quote

One question people raise is whether the expanded pandemic unemployment benefits keep workers from taking jobs. Right now, for example, unemployed workers who receive unemployment insurance benefits get not just the (very meager) level of benefits they would get under normal benefits formulas, but an additional $300 a week. That means that some very low-wage workers—like many restaurant workers—may receive more in unemployment benefits than they would at a job. Is this making jobs hard to fill? There was a lot of fuss about this same question a year ago, when workers were getting a $600 additional benefit a week. There were several rigorous papers that looked at this question, and they all found extremely limited labor supply effects of that additional weekly benefit. If the $600 a week wasn’t keeping people from taking jobs then, it’s hard to imagine that a benefit half that large is having that effect now.

‘The final straw’: How the pandemic pushed restaurant workers over the edge

Quote

In interviews with The Washington Post, 10 current and former workers expressed a wide range of reasons they are or were reluctant to return to work. Some, like Conway, have left the industry or changed careers, saying they felt like the industry was no longer worth the stress and volatility.

[Winstonm]

 johnu, on 2021-May-27, 15:14, said:

I'm sure nobody on the right fringe pointed out that there were 7+ million jobs that were unfilled prior to the start of the Covid pandemic. And most of those jobs are in low paying, part-time service jobs like fast food restaurants, etc.

U.S. labor shortage? Unlikely. Here’s why



‘The final straw’: How the pandemic pushed restaurant workers over the edge

John,
This is all valid information but the question is how to get this past the wall of denial and whataboutisms to create some degree of cognitive dissonance?

[y66]

The Economy Is Spinning Its Wheels, and About to Take Off by Paul Krugman

[pilowsky]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 16:50, said:

John,
This is all valid information but the question is how to get this past the wall of denial and whataboutisms to create some degree of cognitive dissonance?

I don't think cognitive dissonance means what you think it means.
It sounds like you want people to think about the shitty old days as tough but fair.

[johnu]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 16:50, said:

John,
This is all valid information but the question is how to get this past the wall of denial and whataboutisms to create some degree of cognitive dissonance?

TBH, I think "getting through" to the ultra right fringe supporters of the twice impeached one term Manchurian President is a fool's errand. How would you try to formulate a plan to convince these people that Biden won the election and is the legitimate president??? How would you try to convince these people that Covid is dangerous and that wearing masks and getting vaccinated is your best hope of staying safe in the pandemic??? How would you try to convince these people that Criminal in Chief Trump brought his goons to DC and directed them to invade the Capitol on January 6???

I haven't read or heard of any solution that has any hope of succeeding. Nothing has worked so far.

My "solution" is to let (strongly encourage) the Red America counties secede and form their own country, in effect, quarantining them. In the New Confederate States, they can pursue and fantasize about all the nutty, delusional ideas while only affecting themselves.

[Winstonm]

 pilowsky, on 2021-May-27, 17:57, said:

I don't think cognitive dissonance means what you think it means.
It sounds like you want people to think about the shitty old days as tough but fair.

Nope. I want to create a conundrum within their belief system that is impossible to rectify.

[Winstonm]

 johnu, on 2021-May-27, 18:21, said:

TBH, I think "getting through" to the ultra right fringe supporters of the twice impeached one term Manchurian President is a fool's errand. How would you try to formulate a plan to convince these people that Biden won the election and is the legitimate president??? How would you try to convince these people that Covid is dangerous and that wearing masks and getting vaccinated is your best hope of staying safe in the pandemic??? How would you try to convince these people that Criminal in Chief Trump brought his goons to DC and directed them to invade the Capitol on January 6???

I haven't read or heard of any solution that has any hope of succeeding. Nothing has worked so far.

My "solution" is to let (strongly encourage) the Red America counties secede and form their own country, in effect, quarantining them. In the New Confederate States, they can pursue and fantasize about all the nutty, delusional ideas while only affecting themselves.

A house divided cannot stand, I have been told. Shall we put up the closed signs now?

[johnu]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 20:58, said:

A house divided cannot stand, I have been told. Shall we put up the closed signs now?

Republican politicians are feverishly demolishing the foundations of the house (and the Senate ) by actively undermining confidence in America's free elections. They are actually attempted a coup against the American system of government by trying to override valid election voting by US citizens by trying to throw out election results and appointing the winners of election races like it was political patronage.

So yes, the post Civil-war "experiment" to let the Confederate States back into the Union is quickly crumbling into chaos.

[pilowsky]

 Winstonm, on 2021-May-27, 20:57, said:

Nope. I want to create a conundrum within their belief system that is impossible to rectify.

Ok, did you ever see "the Ruling Class"?
Peter O'Toole becomes Lord of the Manor after the previous Lord kills himself accidentally during an episode of auto-eroticism while wearing a ballet skirt.

The problem (if you can call it that) is that he thinks he's Christ.
What to do? Call a psychiatrist.
They put him in a room with another guy (Scottish as I recall) who also thinks he's Christ.
This will create an irresolvable paradox which will cause him to realise that he isn't Christ and become normal.

You can imagine what happens.

The idea is based on a true story. In reality, both Christs just figured the other one was a nutcase.

That's what happens when you get a bunch of people that don't want to learn who have fixed delusions.
Also, when you challenge them they tend to go postal.

You can watch the film here: https://bit.ly/TheRulingClass1972

[cherdano]

Has US Democracy been Trumped?
Yes, sir. Yes, Sir.

[y66]

Matt Yglesias said:

Surprising that Republicans won’t support an investigation that could reveal Antifa’s role in sparking the riot the fake news medial blamed on Trump supporters.

 cherdano, on 2021-May-28, 10:55, said:

Has US Democracy been Trumped?
Yes, sir. Yes, Sir.