[nige1]

In this Forum, Russians appear to be fair game; otherwise ageism seems more common than racism. IMO, where law permits, calm factual debate on such topics can be beneficial.

[jjbrr]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-23, 16:04, said:

BREAKING: New Mueller charges against former Trump Campaign Chair Paul Manafort:

Conspiracy

Money Laundering

Foreign lobbying charges

Causing another to mislead Mueller probe in 2016 and Feb. 2017 - an allegation of obstructive actions while Trump was in office

Quote

BREAKING: A federal Grand Jury has returned a new superseding indictment in the Manafort case.

The indictment says that Manafort, “secretly retained a group of former senior European politicians to take positions favorable to Ukraine, including by lobbying in the United States”

Might be interesting to charge these lobbyists with FARA violations and see what else they know.

It seems Mueller's original indictments were just a warning shot with the hopes of getting Manafort to sing. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that he's afraid of flipping lest he or his family got suicided.

[hrothgar]

 nige1, on 2018-February-23, 16:05, said:

In this Forum, Russians appear to be fair game; otherwise ageism seems more common than racism. IMO, where law permits, calm factual debate on such topics can be beneficial.

Nigel, I don't recall anyone making discriminatory statements about Russians...

Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.
I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.

But please, feel free to prove me wrong...
Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...

[jjbrr]

Quote

The indictment says the group was managed by a former European chancellor. Court papers accuse Manafort of using offshore accounts to pay the group more than 2 million euros.

Sept 2017:

Quote

Gerhard Schroeder, the man who Angela Merkel succeeded as Chancellor of Germany, has just been appointed to the chairman’s job at oil company Rosneft.

[y66]

From Megan McArdle's story about Denmark and prospects for importing Denmark's values into the US:

Quote

When I asked people in Copenhagen about the secret of Denmark’s remarkable success, I kept hearing the same thing: “Trust.”

“Trust,” said a photographer, when I asked him the best thing about living in Denmark. “If we agree on something, you would live up to that.” That confidence, he added, “makes everyday life more comfortable.”

“There’s a lot of social trust,” a speechwriter at the culture ministry told me. “Farmers putting out their products by the roadside, and then putting a jar and saying, ‘Put money in this.’ It’s very common here, and it works.”

Las Olsen, chief economist at Danske Bank, said: “We have this high trust, and it is a huge asset. It is very good for productivity that you don’t have to spend a lot of time and money checking everything.”

Olsen has lived abroad, and when I asked him if it was really that different in Denmark, he said: “Oh, yes. When you come from Denmark to other countries you tend to trust people too much. Danes can get ripped off in the beginning.” He paused for emphasis. “It is a real phenomenon. And it is often one reason why people seem to be happier, and I think that makes sense. It’s very detrimental to be cheated, to feel that you’re cheated, or that you might be cheated.”

And yes, statistics show that the Scandinavian countries are the most trusting places in the world.

...On my first day of interviews, I met with Lars Hvidberg, who works as a speechwriter at the culture ministry. Hvidberg has lived in the U.S., so he seemed well qualified to speculate about the differences between the two countries.

“There are basically four stories about Denmark,” he said. Here’s a breakdown:

The social liberal story: Free education, free speech and democratic government have created social trust and the ability of people to take responsibility and to act for themselves.

The social democracy story: Benefits are high and the taxes are high, which creates equality and trust and enables people to plan for the long term without fear of destitution.

The market liberal story: The real reason Denmark is so successful is that compared to other countries, it’s actually very classically liberal. It has free trade, low regulation, almost no corruption, and makes it easy to start a company.

The nationalist version: The reason Denmark has a well-functioning society is that it’s homogeneous, with a lot of people who think the same, and who place a high value on things like work and honesty and trust toward strangers. In other words, Denmark works so well because it’s full of Danes.

A little apologetically, he said, “I believe all of these stories are true.”

Americans who look enviously at Denmark generally want to import some of these things. The conservative Heritage Foundation would undoubtedly like the U.S. to copy Denmark’s collaborative, low-key approach to business regulation. The progressives who write articles about the cradle-to-grave welfare system would like to copy its generous benefits, and believe that if the U.S. did so, the trust would follow. The emerging U.S. nationalist wing would perhaps like to copy the homogeneity.

But what Hvidberg is suggesting is that these things come in a package. You can’t simply pull some elements out and get the same results. And basically all the Danes I spoke to, from far-left Green Party types to market liberals, agreed that Denmark would be hard to replicate without Danes.

I asked Bjornskov if there was some way the U.S. could make itself more trusting. Unfortunately, he told me, the literature is better at showing us how to destroy trust than to build it.

...I think Sanders is right that the U.S. could learn useful things from Scandinavia. He’s just wrong about which things. Danish business regulations and its welfare state can’t be successfully imported without first learning to trust one another, and to be trustworthy.

And that’s something we’re all going to have to do together. Which means that whatever Danish-style institutions you like, you can’t get them by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with you. These institutions, it turns out, can’t be built with policy papers or political activism. They can only be built through better interactions with each other, one neighbor at a time.

We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.

[kenberg]

 y66, on 2018-February-24, 07:45, said:

From Megan McArdle's story about Denmark and prospects for importing Denmark's values into the US:


We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.

Or I could lend you my copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Or something from the Harry Hole series. Or the Department Q series. All Danish I think. But I quibble, really I take your point and my limited experience with Danish culture inclines me to believe the description in the article. But then I think all of the Danes I have known have been mathematicians, and mathematicians are honest by nature.

We can, perhaps, learn from other cultures. Every society has its own history, its own problems, its own solutions. Still, it can't hurt to pay a little attention to how others deal with problems.

I tend to trust people. Usually that works out. I make exceptions.

[hrothgar]

 kenberg, on 2018-February-24, 09:47, said:

Or I could lend you my copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Or something from the Harry Hole series. Or the Department Q series. All Danish I think. But I quibble, really I take your point and my limited experience with Danish culture inclines me to believe the description in the article. But then I think all of the Danes I have known have been mathematicians, and mathematicians are honest by nature.

The first is Swedish and the second Norwiegan
Not sure about the third...

[hrothgar]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-23, 16:27, said:

Nigel, I don't recall anyone making discriminatory statements about Russians...

Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.
I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.

But please, feel free to prove me wrong...
Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...

Nigel!

It was just two weeks ago that you were explain how you always "Stood up for truth" and admitted when you made mistakes and wanted to learn...

I'm beginning to believe that these claims weren't completely sincere...
Say that it isn't so...

[kenberg]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 10:15, said:

The first is Swedish and the second Norwegian
Not sure about the third...

My error. I have sent off some spit to 23andme and I suppose I will find out I am all wrong about what I thought there as well. (Three quarter Norwegian, I think.)

Anyway I am right on the third.

https://crimefiction...tment-q-series/

I really should have gotten the Dragon Tattoo right since I have read all three of them and (!) seen the Swedish language film. And the English language film, for that matter.

And I was going to mention Kurt Wallander, but he is also Swedish. Oh well.

[nige1]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 10:20, said:

Nigel!It was just two weeks ago that you were explain how you always "Stood up for truth" and admitted when you made mistakes and wanted to learn...I'm beginning to believe that these claims weren't completely sincere...Say that it isn't so...

Hrothgar, you often cast aspersions on my sincerity If you sincerely doubt my impression, then you can waste your own time, searching this thread for adverse "Russian" references. I think that you'll find lots of them and some that specifically refer to businessmen, lawyers, oligarchs, etc.

[barmar]

 jjbrr, on 2018-February-23, 11:40, said:

The fact that racism in some form or another has existed throughout the entirety of human history suggests to me that it's more than just something that kids pick up from their parents as they get older.

Religion has also existed in some form throughout human history, and some neuroscientists even suggest that the capacity for religion is innate, like the capacity for language. But a specific religion has to be indoctrinated -- a child will not become Christian spontaneously.

[hrothgar]

 nige1, on 2018-February-24, 12:18, said:

Hrothgar, you often cast aspersions on my sincerity If you sincerely doubt my impression, then you can waste your own time, searching this thread for adverse "Russian" references. I think that you'll find lots of them and some that specifically refer to businessmen, lawyers, oligarchs, etc.

Nigel, you are correct. I have very little respect for you and frequently cast aspersions regarding both your motives and your intelligence.

This latest exchange is a perfect example of why I do so...

I challenged to come up with examples where forum posters are discriminating against the Russian people rather the government.
You come back with "Plenty of examples of people discriminating against Russian oligarchs..."

The Russian government is a kleptocracy.
When people are criticizing Russian oligarchs, they are criticizing the Russian government.
Same with these "businessmen" and "lawyers".
You don't seriously believe that Natalia Veselnitskaya is some independent party who just happened to wander into Trump tower, do you?

FWIW, if you were just some random idiot, I'd probably let things slide.
But you place yourself on such a very high pedestal.

Your almost a poster child for some version of the Dunning–Kruger effect that operates on moral sanctimony rather than intelligence.

[jjbrr]

i agree with that 100%. the high-horse schtick is incredibly obnoxious. the internet term is SJW or white knight.

[jjbrr]

 barmar, on 2018-February-24, 13:05, said:

Religion has also existed in some form throughout human history, and some neuroscientists even suggest that the capacity for religion is innate, like the capacity for language. But a specific religion has to be indoctrinated -- a child will not become Christian spontaneously.

What's your point? Fairy tales have existed throughout human history with the goal of teaching some lessons. Calling it religion doesn't change what it is.

[nige1]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 13:51, said:

Nigel, you are correct. I have very little respect for you and frequently cast aspersions regarding both your motives and your intelligence.This latest exchange is a perfect example of why I do so...I challenged to come up with examples where forum posters are discriminating against the Russian people rather the government.You come back with "Plenty of examples of people discriminating against Russian oligarchs..."The Russian government is a kleptocracy.When people are criticizing Russian oligarchs, they are criticizing the Russian government.Same with these "businessmen" and "lawyers".You don't seriously believe that Natalia Veselnitskaya is some independent party who just happened to wander into Trump tower, do you?FWIW, if you were just some random idiot, I'd probably let things slide.But you place yourself on such a very high pedestal.Your almost a poster child for some version of the Dunning–Kruger effect that operates on moral sanctimony rather than intelligence.

IMO, there appears to be US bias against Russians. Hrothgar is welcome to develop finer distinctions but I have no time to waste researching them. I am entitled to an interest in freedom and justice. I don't claim to be a History or Politics expert .

Some clever people seem to accumulate wisdom with age. We can learn from some of Noam Chomsky's arguments.
https://www.youtube....h?v=5Ni3j1mhU5M

[jjbrr]

With the release of the memo, a few things should be obvious:

As I said, attempts to block this memo were strictly political as it shows the lengths republicans went to make up a narrative that their rube supporters could get fired up about. There was never a security threat.

Gowdy and Nunes are strictly party over country. Pure, unadulterated pieces of garbage. They want an authoritarian government as much as Dear Leader.

Carter Page seems to be a useless idiot.

Fox News requires a few hours to spin their talking points to match their narrative. They seem to be on board with the idea that Nunes is a piece of ***** right now. I'm sure Hannity will somehow figure out a way to blame this on Hillary or Obama or pizzagate or the kids in Florida with enough preparation.

Chris Steele is a legitimate source of information. The DOJ and FBI are doing their jobs. The courts are doing their jobs. There is no partisan conspiracy.

I'm sure more will come, but this is a huge LOL to the GOP. Try harder to save the sinking ship, you rats.

[jjbrr]

 nige1, on 2018-February-24, 17:21, said:

IMO, there appears to be US bias against Russians. Hrothgar is welcome to develop finer distinctions but I have no time to waste researching them. I am entitled to an interest in freedom and justice. I don't claim to be a History or Politics expert .

Some clever people seem to accumulate wisdom with age. We can learn from Noam Chomsky.
https://www.youtube....h?v=5Ni3j1mhU5M

then stop posting. thanks

[hrothgar]

 nige1, on 2018-February-24, 17:21, said:

IMO, there appears to be US bias against Russians. Hrothgar is welcome to develop finer distinctions but I have no time to waste researching them. I am entitled to an interest in freedom and justice. I don't claim to be a History or Politics expert .

So, your claim is "pure as the driven snow", just really stupid and lazy?

[jjbrr]

Although the section on Carter Page's Moscow section is heavily redacted it suggests Page has been lying about his meetings and that the DOJ independently corroborated that section of the dossier.

Link

Adam Schiff says that the DOJ has corroborated the Carter Page section of the Steele dossier. What does that section claim?

Memo quote - Steele dossier quote

• Page had a secret meeting with Igor Sechin - Rosneft Prez
  
• Sechin offered brokerage of Rosneft sale to Trump team
  
• Page had a secret meeting with Divyekin.
  
• Divyekin told Page that the Kremlin had incriminating info on Clinton.
  
• Divyekin hinted to Page that the Kremlin had kompromat on Trump.

Quote

Rosneft did indeed sell 19.5% in December 2016 to unknown buyers. Steele reported 19%. If the additional .5% was a kickback as Steele suggested, it would be worth approximately $282 million. "How Russia sold its oil jewel: without saying who bought it"

And six months later, Russia bought back a large chunk of the sale: "Russia to buy back Rosneft stake it sold"

[nige1]

 hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 17:29, said:

So, your claim is "pure as the driven snow", just really stupid and lazy?

My impression seems to be true.