[Shugart23]

Playing match point, partner opens 1C and you have strong (8 plus HCP_ 2 suited hand..5-5 or better......wondering if anyone has techniques for responder to show this information...Currently, my method is to show one of the suits and this immediately initiates series of asking sequences....Second suit may never be uncovered......For us , 1C-3H is an undefined bid and could possibly use that for a CRASH-like bid but haven't really thought it out.....We don't use Impossible Negative, so maybe a solution could be found going this route....Wondering if anyone else has developed something. Thank you for any comments.

[steve2005]

I presume your playing some sort of Precision or forcing club, you don't say.

just for example say you have hearts and diamonds

you bid 1♥

if partner has balanced hand will bid 1N or 2N you can then bid ♦

if partner has a suit of their own, shouldn't you be bidding naturally until a fit is found and showing ♦

if partner has a fit for hearts hopefully your relay can discover that, but that's up to you to set out

[Shugart23]

Thanks unfortunately that doesn't work for us. Once I have given partner a positive response, partner has one of three bids available : a) what are honor holding in my suit, temporarily confirming it as trump or b) ask my total controls in my hand or c) ask me strength of support in a different suit......we begin various relays when responder has given positive response...Maybe it's just a trade-off

[Free]

What are openers options after he asked total controls of your hand and you responded?

[etha]

Reese suggested you can jump into the second suit provided this is a nonsense response to the ask. This tends to be ok when partner bids 1NT control ask for example because you can now bid 3!d which isn't a number of controls that it is possible for you to hold. It is ok over 1!s in this case too as I doubt your artificial responses go as far as 3!d.
Sometimes though with different suits you are more stuck.

If you have the time and a decent memory learning a symmetric relay method over 1!c is worthwhile in my opinion.

[Shugart23]

Free, on 2015-August-30, 01:21, said:

What are openers options after he asked total controls of your hand and you responded?

In addition to the three options Opener I mentioned over a positive response, I should have mentioned that he could also just set the final contract or bid non-forcing 2NT showing flat 16-17 HCP and turning Captaincy over.

Let' say I have Spades and Diamonds, 5-5, and 8+ HCP.

Over 1C I bid 1H showing Spades and a positive response

Opener bids 1S {confirming Spades as far as I think ) and I tell him how many of the top 3 Spades I have. After I answer, Opener relays which is a total Control Ask....Incidentally, if Opponents interfere they actually give us the pass and double/redouble as additional steps conserving room.

Alternatively, Partner may like my Spades or may not, but might want to find out my controls first...in this case he bids 1NT...eg 1C-1H-1NT (control ask)..After my response, Partner can bid Spades asking about top three Spade holding and confirming Spades OR bid a new suit asking about my support for that suit...lots of answers here...OR set game OR bid 2NT to turn Captaincy over

Often I never get the chance to show my Diamond suit



I

[Shugart23]

etha, on 2015-August-30, 02:41, said:

Reese suggested you can jump into the second suit provided this is a nonsense response to the ask. This tends to be ok when partner bids 1NT control ask for example because you can now bid 3!d which isn't a number of controls that it is possible for you to hold. It is ok over 1!s in this case too as I doubt your artificial responses go as far as 3!d.
Sometimes though with different suits you are more stuck.

If you have the time and a decent memory learning a symmetric relay method over 1!c is worthwhile in my opinion.

Yeah, wife and I have good memory system and have lots of relay methods......I think your suggestion may work....give an impossible answer which sets the stage...I have to think on that...By not giving Opener the answer to his question, it could throw things off...But I think you may be on to something

[PrecisionL]

I used an old idea from The Hemrick Club / Canary Club System (1966):

1♣ - 1NT = 5-5 exactly (any two suits) - 2♣ Asking (the usual follow-on) [Put NT into 2♣ or 2♦ responses]

2♦ = 5-5 Majors
2♥ = 5-5 ♠ + unknown minor [2NT asks for the minor]
2♠ = 5-5 ♥ + unknown minor [2NT asks for the minor]
2NT = 5-5 Minors

Now suit bid by the 1♣ opener is SAB-3 (if new suit) or Beta (for controls) or RELAY for shortness [you decide]

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This post has been edited by PrecisionL: 2021-December-30, 11:29

[PrecisionL]

Another approach is to use 3 level responses to 1♣ as a 5-5 hand (like Fantunes):

3♣ = 5-5 clubs + unknown [3♦ asking: Bid the 2nd suit and 3NT = Diamonds]
3♦ = 5-5 Majors
3♥ = 5-5 Hearts + Diamonds
3♠ = 5-5 Spades + Diamonds

HINT: 1♣ opener's first rebid should be neutral without support or his own good suit [maybe NT]. It is too early to ask for Controls. Fit first, then strength.

[steve2005]

Shugart23, on 2015-August-30, 06:13, said:

Yeah, wife and I have good memory system and have lots of relay methods......I think your suggestion may work....give an impossible answer which sets the stage...I have to think on that...By not giving Opener the answer to his question, it could throw things off...But I think you may be on to something

ive seen use of a jump to break a relay with 5-5 two-suiter but it had to be good it had to have a min number of controls (which I can't remember)

[PrecisionL]

steve2005 said:

ive seen use of a jump to break a relay with 5-5 two-suiter but it had to be good it had to have a min number of controls (which I can't remember)

Terence Reese in Precision Bidding & Precision Play recommended this approach (pg. 147):

1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠(Alpha Asking Bid for Support) - 3♣ (Ignoring Alpha with 0-1♠ and showing 5-5 & 3 or more Controls)

[gordontd]

Transfer responses seem like a good start.

[PrecisionL]

There is a new design for 5-5 positive responses to a strong ♣ opening. Per Barcelona Strong Club, 2017:

1♣ - 2♥ = any 5-5, 11+ hcp
1♣ - 2♠ = touching 5-5, 8-10 hcp
1♣ - 2NT = non-touching 5-5, 8-10 hcp

I have played a few years ago a version credited to Eric Rodwell:

1♣ - 2♠ = GF 5-5, 2NT Asks

3♣ = 5♣ & another 5, 3♦ asks
3♦ = 5-5 ♦ + ♥
3♥ = 5-5 ♥ & ♠
3♠ = ♠ & ♦

[Zelandakh]

For both minors, respond 1♠ followed by 2♠. Otherwise show a major, then show the second suit and then bid 2♠.