[Vampyr]

Using "lead" when you mean "led" is becoming an epidemic on these forums. I don't like having to go back and work out what the writer meant. Please proofread!

PS I don't know where this belongs; feel free to move it if there is a suitable forum,

[gwnn]

I'm not trying to criticise, but it seems to me you will just have to let this go.

[Winstonm]

 Vampyr, on 2016-January-30, 00:40, said:

Using "lead" when you mean "led" is becoming an epidemic on these forums. I don't like having to go back and work out what the writer meant. Please proofread!

PS I don't know where this belongs; feel free to move it if there is a suitable forum,

Moderator should move only if lead...led....to do so.

[gwnn]

To make this a bit different from the previous iteration, I am always confused about things like

(some hand posted)
"♣A lead"

I understand when someone says "I got a club lead" (lead is a noun, club is a noun modifier? or an adjective or something). But what about this "♣A lead"? I think it's OK to interpret it as short for "I got a club-ace lead" (lead still a noun) or "the opening lead was the ace of clubs", but let's hope it's not short for "the ♣A was lead" as that would be a lame misspelling. Am I the only one who's wondered about this?

[kenberg]

 Vampyr, on 2016-January-30, 00:40, said:

Using "lead" when you mean "led" is becoming an epidemic on these forums. I don't like having to go back and work out what the writer meant. Please proofread!

PS I don't know where this belongs; feel free to move it if there is a suitable forum,

Such bad usage makes me see read. I may have to stop reeding the Forum. But when my doctor points to the examining table and says lay there, I resist the urge to tell him that I am not a hen and just lie there.

I do in fact proofread, but errors remain. Some from bad proofreading, some from my lack of knowledge, and sometimes I just don't care. I have probably split more infinitives than a reactor has split atoms.

[fromageGB]

I always assumed it was some american thing, like not being able to spell tyre. After all, "lead" of the Pb variety is pronounced the same.

[barmar]

I think you just have to let it go. If I've learned one thing from 30+ years on the Internet, it's that many people are not good spellers. They don't know when to use "its" versus "it's". They forget to capitalize words like "American".

Internet posts are mostly just dashed off informally, people don't give them as much care as they would a term paper in school or a scholarly work.

[kenberg]

 barmar, on 2016-January-31, 00:18, said:

I think you just have to let it go. If I've learned one thing from 30+ years on the Internet, it's that many people are not good spellers. They don't know when to use "its" versus "it's". They forget to capitalize words like "American".

Internet posts are mostly just dashed off informally, people don't give them as much care as they would a term paper in school or a scholarly work.

Part of it is ignorance, and I referred to my own above. I am pretty sure that I could move to "the North" but I would "drive north" to do so. But there are times that I am unsure. There are Democrats and Republicans but we live in a democracy. My views are somewhat liberal but I am not a Liberal.

However there is another source of error. I have been writing in cursive for approximately as long as I can remember. Typing is far more recent. I pounded out a few short essays in high school on a depression era typewriter but I avoided this when at all possible So typing is not natural to me. I can write in the dark, I cannot type in the dark. The result is that I make spelling errors when typing that I would never make when writing.

And, of course, people make errors. One of the features of modern technology is that we can all be posting all the time. This is a mixed blessing.

[mgoetze]

 kenberg, on 2016-January-31, 07:39, said:

but we live in a democracy.

I prefer the term "post-democracy". I mean look at things like TTIP and you'll find that core democratic principles have gone out the window long ago.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2016-January-31, 00:18, said:

I think you just have to let it go. If I've learned one thing from 30+ years on the Internet, it's that many people are not good spellers. They don't know when to use "its" versus "it's". They forget to capitalize words like "American".

Internet posts are mostly just dashed off informally, people don't give them as much care as they would a term paper in school or a scholarly work.

Yeah, it's/its makes me a little crazy. Once I saw its' -- that was pretty creative!

I just think that even on the Internet, using poor spelling and/or grammar is very disrespectful to the people who take the time to read your material.

I do not intend to disparage anyone who is not fluent in English. They are doing really well to read and post on these forums.

[y66]

Post-democracy is not a term I've seen in the U.S. media or on this forum. The way it's used by Colin Crouch, as described by this guy, does seem to match up with what's happening in the U.S.:

Quote

First, we have to understand what Crouch means by the titular term “post-democracy” and how it differs from democracy itself. In “post-democracy,” a pole toward which Crouch argues Western democracies have been moving for the past several decades, elections are held and governments change, and all of the formal trappings of democracy are in place. However, the form is belied by the substance. Rather than celebrating participatory governance and inclusive deliberation, politics degrades into a “tightly controlled spectacle” designed by media experts in which debate is confined to a narrow range of self-selected issues. As in theater, the democratic public becomes a passive audience watching a production designed for their consumption and whose details are determined through behind-the-scenes interaction, here between elected officials, elites, and business interests. New elections may come, and the voters may, in discontent, throw out the old and vote in the new; however, the policy differences between the new and old coalitions will be slight. The deference toward corporate interests will remain, and little effort will be expended in challenging the status quo and the existing structures of power that govern society.

[kenberg]

 Vampyr, on 2016-January-31, 19:11, said:

Yeah, it's/its makes me a little crazy. Once I saw its' -- that was pretty creative!

I just think that even on the Internet, using poor spelling and/or grammar is very disrespectful to the people who take the time to read your material.

I do not intend to disparage anyone who is not fluent in English. They are doing really well to read and post on these forums.

Perhaps it is I? I have not noticed anyone using lead instead of led, so perhaps i am the culprit. I assure you that it is not intentional, but I decline to take responsibility for your sanity.

Sometimes I can't grasp what someone means, even worse sometimes I think I understand but I don't, and yes, sometimes I wish the poster took a little more time to be unambiguous, but the casual typos don't put me off.


When I teach, I try to keep the hand-outs to a minimum. If I feel that I absolutely must write one up, I proof it, I have Becky proof it, and then I proof it again. That still does not guarantee zero typos in ten pages of stuff.

I have the following attitude about kids in a restaurant. We have all had kids, and kids can be kids. The parents do not have to be completely successful in controlling their kids, but I expect them to make an effort. I feel the same way about typos. Effort is appreciated, perfection is not expected.

[barmar]

I expect sloppiness in Internet posts. Where I find it annoying is when I see these types of mistakes in the newspaper. These are professional writers, and they have editors who should be reviewing it (unfortunately, I think proofreaders are no longer employed). I suspect they just rely on software spell-checkers, and they can't help with homonyms or misplaced/missing words. My town newspaper is only about 30 pages each week, of which I generally read about a quarter, yet it's a rare issue where I don't see a couple of these errors.

[gwnn]

I actually appreciated the first time Vampyr called our attention to this lead/led issue. I hate it when I make spelling or grammar mistakes and this "led" form was something that at some point I simply stopped using and I slipped into a habit of mistakes. Similarly with payed paid, I knew the correct form but started making the error until Han woke me up. I hate this kind of "forgets" as it's symptomatic of so many other subconscious bad habits in life.

PS I'm ok with making loads of misdeclensions in German as usually I'm getting better at them and I'll never learn if I don't try. Forgetting a correct form is much more painful.

[kenberg]

I agree with this about appreciating corrections. I especially appreciate calling my attention to factual mistakes, but I am willing to learn about spelling and grammar as well. But best effort notwithstanding, I make errors. If these errors drive someone around the bend, I doubt that I can do anything about it.

[mycroft]

I can see both "♣A led" and "♣A lead" - if that's the entire phrase. Both are discussing the hand and both mean the same. One is short for "The ♣A was led" and the other is "[make it](or whatever) on the ♣A lead".

But yes, in general, lead when led was meant (and vice versa) ranks right up there for me with "moral/morale" and "loose/lose".

[Vampyr]

Well, "loosing tricks" appears on these forums, but the other doesn't ... between you and I, if I would have known we would expand to things that don't appear in these forums I would of given more examples...

[Zelandakh]

 Vampyr, on 2016-February-01, 18:45, said:

I would of given more examples...

Oh the irony...

[gwnn]

Oh uh Vampyr, wasn't this "If I would have..." one of your pet peeves too?

Quote

And "If I would have [eg known]" will become an acceptable variation of "If I had". This one is one of the worst, in my opinion.

[kenberg]

Well, I was also taught that it is "between you and me" rather than "between you and I" since the preposition "between" takes the objective case. But we discussed this a few years back and apparently there is some modern version of grammar that makes "between you and I" acceptable. Growing up, I never heard anyone say "between you and I".

But I think "Where you lead I will follow" is still right and "I followed where you lead" is still wrong. Things change. Just lie in wait until next year, and after that you might be allowed to lay in wait for the following year.