[Stefan_O]

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx
xxx   AQxx   KQx   xxx
Qxx   AQxxx   Kx   xxx

[fromageGB]

Bid 4th suit and game in whatever partner rebids, then afterwards say "what a lousy method, think of something else".

[wank]

3 diamonds.

If you're unfortunate enough to have only 2 diamonds too, you bid 2nt - no club stop required.

[Stefan_O]

fromageGB, on 2016-August-20, 03:25, said:

Bid 4th suit and game in whatever partner rebids, then afterwards say "what a lousy method, think of something else".

OK, thats one way

I just get the impression many good players today play 4sf forcing-to-game.
Or is this not correct?

[Stefan_O]

wank, on 2016-August-20, 04:40, said:

3 diamonds.

With only 3-card support?
So we risk ending up in a 3♦ 4-3 fit, when pd is minimum?

[Stefan_O]

wank, on 2016-August-20, 04:40, said:

If you're unfortunate enough to have only 2 diamonds too, you bid 2nt - no club stop required.

And if pd then accepts, but also has no ♣-stopper, is he supposed to ask for ♣-stop, or will he just bid 3NT regardless?

[Jinksy]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 05:02, said:

And if pd then accepts, but also has no ♣-stopper, is he supposed to ask for ♣-stop, or will he just bid 3NT regardless?

Given that you didn't bid NT yourself, he should be cautious - you wouldn't have preferred 3♦ unless you were either missing a club stop or had a very trump-oriented hand even with one.

Quote

With only 3-card support?
So we risk ending up in a 3♦ 4-3 fit, when pd is minimum?

Depends on your bidding style. If you bid or rebid NT on all balanced hands, then P almost certainly has 5♦ (unless exactly 4144).

[Stefan_O]

Jinksy, on 2016-August-20, 05:30, said:

Given that you didn't bid NT yourself, he should be cautious - you wouldn't have preferred 3♦ unless you were either missing a club stop or had a very trump-oriented hand even with one.

Depends on your bidding style. If you bid or rebid NT on all balanced hands, then P almost certainly has 5♦ (unless exactly 4144).

But the std style is that you always bid 1♦-1♥-1♠ with a 4-card ♠-suit even if you have balanced hand, right?

Otherwise, it gets tricky, at least when responder is 4-4 or 4-5 in the majors with less than invitational values....

[Stefan_O]

Jinksy, on 2016-August-20, 05:30, said:

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 05:02, said:

wank, on 2016-August-20, 04:40, said:

If you're unfortunate enough to have only 2 diamonds too, you bid 2nt - no club stop required.

And if pd then accepts, but also has no ♣-stopper, is he supposed to ask for ♣-stop, or will he just bid 3NT regardless?

Given that you didn't bid NT yourself, he should be cautious - you wouldn't have preferred 3♦ unless you were either missing a club stop or had a very trump-oriented hand even with one.

@ Jinksy: As can be seen, my comment here was referring to the case where we did bid NT, but without a stopper (as suggested by wank), namely: 1♦-1♥-1♠-2NT.
Should opener here, if he accepts the invite, ask for ♣-stopper if he doesnt have one himself?

(Another issue here, of course, is that you likely wrong-side the NT-contract, when jumping to 2NT without stopper.)

[Kaitlyn S]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx

People do play 4th suit forcing to game, and for good reason. When you have a game-going hand, it makes finding the right game easier when you know you can't be passed, and it makes slam investigation easier. That being said, hands like the ones you presented are a problem.

On this hand I would unashamedly bid 3D. Partner will often have 5, and when he doesn't, you will be taking the club ruffs in the short trump hand. Partner will hopefully keep a trump in dummy until spades or hearts are established, and might want to ruff the fourth spade. This bid is a lot easier for the people who rebid 1NT on 4-3-4-2 since partner likely has 5 diamonds but I think most players still bid 1S on that shape.

This would be a much harder problem if the auction was 1C-1H-1S and you had Qxx, AQxxx, xx, Kxx and your style allowed you to rebid 1S on 4-3-3-3. I'd be tempted to bid 2D and hope for really good breaks if partner is dead minimum. However, this is suicidal if partner opens all 12's and some 11's and I might choose 3S (or even 2S if partner is a real maniac when opening the bidding.)

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

xxx   AQxx   KQx   xxx

Again, I bid 3D but this hand has a lot less game potential and I wouldn't fault someone for bidding 2D - if partner has 17 or so he is bidding again. Switch diamonds and clubs and if partner's 4-3-3-3 is a possibility, I would think that this might be one of those times that 26 points isn't enough for game and bid 2S (the only suit in which I am guaranteed a 7-card fit.) Bidding notrump with 3 small clubs seems repulsive but 2S is no bargain either and I could easily be convinced that 1NT is the right call, especially at matchpoints. Note that if partner has 17ish, he is bidding again; he doesn't have 15-17 balanced, and if he has 15 unbalanced I am willing to risk that we can't make 4H or 5D so taking the low road seems okay here.

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kx   xxx

Now you have taken away my comfortable 3D bid. The values are in a good place and if partner is a sound opener, I might bid 2C and hope that partner gets lucky if he is dead minimum. If partner is 4-2-5-2 with a heart honor, 4H could easily make. Again, if partner opens a lot of garbagey 12's and some 11's, you can't take this approach if you like plus scores. In that case, I guess I would commit to the 4-3 in spades and 3S seems right on values. You pay off bigtime when partner has four small spades, but what contract were you making if that is partner's hand?

[Vampyr]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 09:39, said:

But the std style is that you always bid 1♦-1♥-1♠ with a 4-card ♠-suit even if you have balanced hand, right?

Is this standard?

[Vampyr]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx
xxx   AQxx   KQx   xxx
Qxx   AQxxx   Kx   xxx

I think that 4th suit as a one-round force, unless it is at the three level or responder has reversed, is playable. If you would prefer that.

[kenrexford]

This auction is why you do not bid 1S with all balanced hands if playing 4th suit forcing to game.

If 1S shows real diamonds,you have little problem supporting them.

That said, the ladders should be an exception, IMO. The thrre ladders are

1♧-1♢-1-♡-1♤
1♢-1♡-1♤-2♧
1♡-1♤-2♧-2♢

In each of these ladder auctions I don't think the fourth bed should be absolutely game forcing. But that's a side note.

[rmnka447]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 04:47, said:

OK, thats one way

I just get the impression many good players today play 4sf forcing-to-game.
Or is this not correct?

My impression is similar. Among the very good players I play with on only an occasional to rare basis, I'd estimate that it runs about 2-1 or 3-1 in favor of GF versus a 1 round force.

[rmnka447]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx

I'd bid 3 ♦ for many of the same reasons that Kaitlyn suggests. But it also keeps 3 ♥ available for partner when holding 3 ♥. If partner finds a 3 ♥ bid, I'll raise to 4 ♥ as all the hand's points are working.

Quote

xxx   AQxx   KQx   xxx

I agree with all who think this is the toughest hand to rebid. I'd choose 2 NT as the least onerous choice. I'm not sure it absolutely promises a ♣ stopper. # NT would promise a stopper(s). 2 NT seems to me to be like 1 NT showing a value range but not necessarily a stopper. Opener isn't barred from having something in ♣ just because of bidding the pointed suits. If there is a concern about ♣, a 3 ♣ rebid can be made to ask about them. OTOH, if partner rebids 3 ♦, you'll be in a good spot.

Quote

Qxx   AQxxx   Kx   xxx

I just have a problem raising on a doubleton or raising opener's second suit on 3 especially without a ruffing value in the 4th suit. So you probably come down to 2 ♥, 3 ♥, or 2 NT as the logical rebid choices. Most people would insist that 3 ♥ is invitational and shows 6+ ♥. 2 NT is invitational, but probably loses a 5-3 ♥ fit should one exist. 2 ♥ is a sign off with 5+ ♥. Nothing really fits, so it's a take your choice.

[Kaitlyn S]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx

rmnka447, on 2016-August-20, 14:47, said:

I'd bid 3 ♦ for many of the same reasons that Kaitlyn suggests. But it also keeps 3 ♥ available for partner when holding 3 ♥. If partner finds a 3 ♥ bid, I'll raise to 4 ♥ as all the hand's points are working.

If partner finds a 3H bid, I would raise to 4H, but not because the cards are working, but because I think 3H is forcing.

In general, when you've made an invitational (non-minimum) bid in an old suit, and partner doesn't pass, I think you are forced to game. In another thread, the auction 1D (P) 1S (P) 3D (P) 3S was discussed. It is forcing in standard bidding, but most newer players don't know that. The same principle applies - 3D was a non-minimum invitational old suit, so any bid other than Pass is game-forcing.

In the auction 1D-1H-1S-3D-3H, I think opener is only limited by his lack of a jump shift on his first rebid. That being said, if partner has such a good hand that he thinks he might be able to make 6D or 6H even opposite your invitational bid, they might jump to 4H to show a super hand even though 3H is forcing. Clearly this shows at most 1 club as opener with a good 4-3-4-2 would either open 1NT or rebid 2NT. If you trust your partner to know that 3H would have been forcing and hear him bid 4H anyway, you can look very fondly upon your small clubs. You hold as responder that first hand: Qxx AQxxx Kxx xx and partner jumps to 4H after your invitational 3D rebid (1D-1H-1S-3D-4H.) Partner could hold AKxx, Kxx, AQxxx, x and is still short of a jump shift, but now has shown a super hand if you don't have club wastage. Either 6H or 6D should be a good contract and you should bid it.

From my experience in the Main Bridge Club on BBO, if I'm playing with a random partner who as opener jumps to 4H, I cannot make the assumption that he knows that 3H is forcing (even with Expert marked in the profile) so I would probably pass and take the plus and be ready to apologize if partner held what they are supposed to - although perhaps that strategy is misguided. If partner knows what 4H should show there, I probably want to play with him again, and if I pass 4H, he probably won't want to play with me again. So it might be better in the long run to lose 13 IMPs most of the time in order to pick up a bunch of IMPs and a good partnership when you happen to face someone who knows what the bid shows. However, if partner has already done something on another hand that makes you realize this is not a partnership made in heaven, then I think pass is a no-brainer despite not being technically correct.

[StevenG]

This thread is yet another case of people playing that all bidding should be optimised for IMPs scoring. Why?

My face-to-face bridge is nearly all MPs. The EBU club of which I'm a member plays, I'd estimate, about 85% MPs to 15% IMPS. The non-affiliated club (of a reasonable standard for a non-EBU club) at which I play is 100% MPs. I'm not playing any tournament bridge at the moment (no suitable partner), but I intend to stick to Swiss Pairs (i.e. MPs) if the chance arises in the future.

Anyway, I want to be able to bid part-scores accurately, because that scores well at MPs. I don't need to lunge at games just beecause they are games. I grew up with, and still only really understand, Acol and it is good for MPs with its plethora of non-forcing bids. I'm happy with that.

So I don't play 4th suit forcing to game. It is bad at MPs. If I play IMPs, I'm aware of the need to bid games, so I make adjustments. But I don't see the need to build a system around bidding games if you are not playing IMPs all the time. If you are, then these methods do make sense, but I doubt that's true for people who play in clubs.

[helene_t]

FSF as a one-round force may be playable but it raises the question exactly which follow ups after FSF can be passed. And whenever a call is nonforcing, you have to either jump or make up some kind of fake bid to force to game when you have a queen more than you promised.

Therefore, it is far superior to play FSF as GF. In the rare event you have an invitational hand without clear direction you pick your poison.

If you can't live with this then you could play XYZ:
1♦-1♥
1♠-?
and now
2♣: sign-off in 2♦ OR any invitational hand without clear direction.
2♦: Any GF

BTW, playing the 1♠ rebid as promising an unbalanced hand and/or frequent 3-card raises by opener and/or playing weak NT solves most of these problems.

[maartenxq]

Stefan_O, on 2016-August-20, 02:34, said:

If you play 4th suit forcing to game,
after
    1♦-1♥
    1♠-?
what do you bid with invitational hands and no ♣-stopper, like:

Qxx   AQxxx   Kxx   xx
xxx   AQxx   KQx   xxx
Qxx   AQxxx   Kx   xxx

Problems. 1 and 3 are weak invitational because of 5 card ♥. 2 u can bid 1 nt in my opinion, certainly in mps.
Your problem has already been solved by the xyx convention, an extension of checkback stayman. After 1 x - 1 y 1 z - ? you bid 2 ♣ with any invitational hand or a lot of diamonds. Parten MUST bid 2 ♦ whereupon you say what you have, in this case 2 ♥or nt.
If you happen to have gf values you bid 2 ♦ gf relay after partners second bid and p bids naturally.

Maarten Baltussen

[msjennifer]

Personally I find it wise not to play fourth suit forcing to game.Playing the fourth suit forcing upto 2NT or 3 of suit is much much better.If played this way then over 2C opener will be able to show a three card heart support if his hand is 4342.Else, it is very difficult to show a five card decent heart suit as 3H will show a different picture I.e a six card suit and 2H will be treated as sign off.No point in bidding an invitational 2Nt as Opener can not have balanced 15 HCP .He would have opened 1 No trump if he had.Of course,if responder has a certain game going hand he is free to continue biding a game or even a slam if his hand warrants.Opener has to proceed with a little caution after a 4thsuit bid as it may well be check-back for support.