[Liversidge]

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Yesterday I played teams with a pickup partner playing Acol strong 2's and had this hand.

I opened 2NT (reluctantly), RHO bid 3♦ and partner (who had nothing, and 4 diamonds to the 10)) bid 3NT which went 1 off. At the other table they opened 2♥ and made game in hearts.
I didn't think my hand was strong enough for 2♥ as I didn't have 8 playing tricks, but then I didn't have a semi-balanced hand either. I have run the hand through Jack and Bridge Baron and they both open 2♣.
Leaving aside the result at both tables and the question of whether partner should have bid, should I have opened 2♥ or 2♣, rather than 2NT??

[wank]

it's not close to 2C. it's either 2NT or 1H. personally i very much prefer 1H.

even playing strong 2s or benji or some such, opening at the 1 level doesn't deny a strong hand; it just denies a hand which can open something more specific.

your chances of missing a good game by opening 1H and partner passing are pretty much 0.

[Cyberyeti]

The main advantage of opening 2N is where you only have enough for game because LHO leads away from A♦ in NT (or partner has something like Jxx which proves to be a trick in NT but isn't in hearts.

I would open this 1♥ though.

[NickRW]

I'm not sure there is a really good answer to the question of what to open hands like this. Other posters have pointed out the options. I've tried them all and they all have their times when they succeed and times when they fail abjectly.

The situation is made worse by the fact that hands such as this are relatively uncommon, meaning that, even if you've tried all the options, you probably don't have very much experience with them to really give a definitive answer.

The best answer I can give is, if partner strains to give a response on (sub)minimum dreck, then your best bet is to open 1H as you're fairly much assured on not missing game and do start with your best suit. If, however, partner is a typical Acol player and tends to not say anything with a random 5 count, then you're probably better off using the strong option that best fits your system and its rebids - which may well be 2N - especially if you use some sort of 5 card major/puppet stayman in response.

[helene_t]

A strong 2♥ opening can be played as specifically a semiforcing 1-suiter (partner can pass it), or as EITHER a semiforcing one-suiter OR a GF 2-suiter. This hand can probably be described as a semi-forcing 2-suiter. So the choice is between 1♥ and 2NT. I strongly prefer 1♥. 2NT only works when partner has a hand that would pass after 1♥ but respond to 2NT, i.e. exactly 5 points. And then it reuires that 3NT actually makes and that opps won't rescue you if you open 1♥. Those are long odds compared to all the bad things that can happen if you open 2NT.

[nige1]

 Liversidge, on 2017-February-17, 05:23, said:

Yesterday I played teams with a pickup partner playing Acol strong 2's and had this hand.
I opened 2NT (reluctantly), RHO bid 3♦ and partner (who had nothing, and 4 diamonds to the 10)) bid 3NT which went 1 off. At the other table they opened 2♥ and made game in hearts.
I didn't think my hand was strong enough for 2♥ as I didn't have 8 playing tricks, but then I didn't have a semi-balanced hand either. I have run the hand through Jack and Bridge Baron and they both open 2♣.
Leaving aside the result at both tables and the question of whether partner should have bid, should I have opened 2♥ or 2♣, rather than 2NT??

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I rank

• 2♥ = NAT. Acol: Showing a good hand but sometimes you can subside in a partscore.
• 2N = BAL, A slight underbid. Might have worked better if partner, with 0 HCP, had passed or doubled LHO's 3♦ overcall.
• 2♣ = ART. a slight overbid, Intending to rebid 2N showing 22-23 BAL (which partner can pass).
• 1♥ = NAT. Unless partner responds light, you might miss a game.

[helene_t]

 nige1, on 2017-February-17, 09:52, said:

I rank

• 2♥ = NAT. Acol: Showing a good hand but sometimes you can subside in a partscore.

Can you stop in 2♣ (or 2NT) after a 2♥ opening?

[NickRW]

To the opening poster, you might notice there are a lot similar, but nuanced and ultimately different opinions

For those who like 1H so much, do your partners routinely respond on 5 counts? I quite like 1H too, but the assertion that the chances of you missing game is near zero, is, in my experience, a fairly gross over estimate.

[nige1]

 helene_t, on 2017-February-17, 10:03, said:

Can you stop in 2♣ (or 2NT) after a 2♥ opening?

Perhaps in future, you can -- the new insufficient-bid law is quite sophisticated.

If you open 1♥, you might play there but you are unlikely to stop in 2♣ or 2N

Traditionally, the Acol 2♥ opener is a 1-round force but not a game-force. Most regular partnerships employ a Herbert-negative (i.e. over 2♥, 2♠ is an artificial negative). which might sometimes allow opener to play in 2N.

Seriously, opening 2♥ might allow you to stop in a 3♥ or 4♣ making partscore -- or at least avoid a double. Also 2♥ makes some allowance for partner holding a poor hand. with which he might pass 1♥, for example
♠ x x x x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x
♠ x x ♥ x ♦ x x x x ♣ K x x x x x
♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ Q J x x ♣ J x x x x

Thank you, Liversidge. A good problem -- the choices seem close,

[msjennifer]

 Liversidge, on 2017-February-17, 05:23, said:

---

Yesterday I played teams with a pickup partner playing Acol strong 2's and had this hand.

I opened 2NT (reluctantly), RHO bid 3♦ and partner (who had nothing, and 4 diamonds to the 10)) bid 3NT which went 1 off. At the other table they opened 2♥ and made game in hearts.
I didn't think my hand was strong enough for 2♥ as I didn't have 8 playing tricks, but then I didn't have a semi-balanced hand either. I have run the hand through Jack and Bridge Baron and they both open 2♣.
Leaving aside the result at both tables and the question of whether partner should have bid, should I have opened 2♥ or 2♣, rather than 2NT??

I fully agree that this hand is not good and fit enough to open 2H as played under authentic ACOL.The hand is poor to open 2Club.The obvious clear cut opening is 1Heart.If partner has nothing to respond then if the bidding goes 2D -P-P then one can easily make a take out double.The hand is exactly worth that much only.Playing a strong club system the 1Club all purpose opening can do better justice to those who are afraid of missing a game.

[Liversidge]

 msjennifer, on 2017-February-18, 01:55, said:

I fully agree that this hand is not good and fit enough to open 2H as played under authentic ACOL.The hand is poor to open 2Club.The obvious clear cut opening is 1Heart.If partner has nothing to respond then if the bidding goes 2D -P-P then one can easily make a take out double.The hand is exactly worth that much only.Playing a strong club system the 1Club all purpose opening can do better justice to those who are afraid of missing a game.

When I asked the player who opened 2♥, bid and made 4♥, why he opened 2♥, he said it was because he only had four losers. This links back to my earlier post about assessing whether you should count playing tricks or losers when assessing whether your hand is good enough for a strong opening bid.

http://www.bridgebas...playing-tricks/

I hear the 'I had only x losers' or 'you should have counted your losers' a lot where I play, yet all the advice I get in books and here says I should count playing tricks. That's what I will stick to.

[nekthen]

These problems are even more common without a strong 2 option. I would always bid 1♥, to compensate my partnership will strain to bid 2♥ with little more than 3 card support and a ruffing value.

[mlbridge]

You indicate this is a team game so I assume scoring is imps. I did not see any mention of vulnerability. But considering how much I would lose if I miss a game versus going down one, I would open strong 2 clubs or 2 hearts, depending on your system. I can always sign off below game if partner gives me a second negative. Since I can make game if partner have shortness in clubs or just the jack of clubs, plus some hearts, I would take my chance in a team game.

[mlbridge]

Also, I would never open nt with a singleton. Partner is expecting at least a doubleton in every suit.

[1eyedjack]

Not convinced that any solution is clear cut here.

I hear the fear that 1H risks missing game. Presumably because it gets passed out. It may depend a bit on your responding style, but various factors have to converge for this to happen: Partner has to have a very narrow range of values and shapes such that you can make game but he is constrained to pass 1H, which is possible but uncommon, and the opponents also have to leave you there, which happens but is also much of the time not risk-free from their perspective in other respects such as being talked out of a part-score there way when opener happens not to have this rock crusher. Even then game may be short of laydown even if odds in favour.

So all of that might happen but it would be infrequent and needs to be weighed against the other risks associated with (say) 2C opener such as getting too high or simply getting into the wrong game, because you have taken out so much more bidding space by opening 2C that you lack the delicacy to bid a hand that, when opening, could envisage playing in any one of 4 denominations (plus very rarely Diamonds).

As for denying a singleton King when opening 2N you are of course free to enter into such a partnership agreement, and perhaps it was popular in days of yore, but the current popular trend seems to be in favour of relaxation. Even then partner may expect a doubleton diamond but that expectation is unlikely to feature in his bidding decisions. Having a singleton King AND a 5 card major? Maybe that is a stretch too far.

[rhm]

 helene_t, on 2017-February-17, 09:16, said:

This hand can probably be described as a semi-forcing 2-suiter. So the choice is between 1♥ and 2NT. I strongly prefer 1♥. 2NT only works when partner has a hand that would pass after 1♥ but respond to 2NT, i.e. exactly 5 points. And then it reuires that 3NT actually makes and that opps won't rescue you if you open 1♥. Those are long odds compared to all the bad things that can happen if you open 2NT.

A very lopsided perspective.
First of all it is quite easy to construct hands where you do not need 5 HCP and partner will respond to 2NT.
A transfer to spades might easily make game opposite a near yarborough.
It might also be crucial to play the hand in 3NT and disguise this hand from opponents.
Bridge is not played double dummy.

Say you open 1♥
Even if this is not immediately fatal, I can see problems describing strength and distribution of this hand when partner responds 1♠, 1NT or even 2♦.

No thanks for me, the singleton minor suit king and the 5 card heart suit leaves me cold
I open 2NT, which almost anyone would have done if the heart jack or the club queen would have been a small diamond.
At least partner has a fair description of my strength and a rough assessment of my distribution.

Rainer Herrmann

[msjennifer]

 Liversidge, on 2017-February-18, 02:29, said:

When I asked the player who opened 2♥, bid and made 4♥, why he opened 2♥, he said it was because he only had four losers. This links back to my earlier post about assessing whether you should count playing tricks or losers when assessing whether your hand is good enough for a strong opening bid.

http://www.bridgebas...playing-tricks/

I hear the 'I had only x losers' or 'you should have counted your losers' a lot where I play, yet all the advice I get in books and here says I should count playing tricks. That's what I will stick to.

In Acol system the 2H opening is supposed to promise 8 playing tricks if my memory is correct.Acol system does not make an opening bid based upon LTC but HCP and winning tricks.LTC count comes into play when you find a sure 8 plus cards fit in a suit.I would like to know what is the opening bid for this hand from those who follow the rule of twenty..

[NickRW]

 Liversidge, on 2017-February-18, 02:29, said:

I hear the 'I had only x losers' or 'you should have counted your losers' a lot where I play, yet all the advice I get in books and here says I should count playing tricks. That's what I will stick to.

Good. LTC, particularly modified LTC, is quite a reasonable tool when raising partner's suit. It isn't much use in other situations.

[GrahamJson]

I seem to be a lone voice here as I would open 2C. I don't like 2NT on this shape and I don't see how you can ever catch up after a one level opening. True, 2C could end badly if you have no fit but it might b the only way to get to a good game when partner has one or two useful cards such as JC or QH. I'm not saying that 2C is a great bid but all the alternatives look worse.

[GrahamJson]

 nige1, on 2017-February-18, 01:22, said:

Seriously, opening 2♥ might allow you to stop in a 3♥ or 4♣ making partscore -- or at least avoid a double. Also 2♥ makes some allowance for partner holding a poor hand. with which he might pass 1♥, for example
♠ x x x x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x
♠ x x ♥ x ♦ x x x x ♣ K x x x x x
♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ Q J x x ♣ J x x x x

Thank you, Liversidge. A good problem -- the choices seem close,

I note that opening 2C would result in contracts of 4S, 5C and 3NT opposite these three hands. All look reasonable to me.