[Tramticket]

 wanoff, on 2017-May-26, 15:04, said:

1♠ may work out ok, although 1♠-2♣-2♦ guarantees 5 spades.

It guarantees five spades AND it buries the heart suit. This option is easily the worst in my opinion.

[Nabooba]

The worst option is to open 1D and rebid 2D. Those who choose this option have not thought through the ramifications. You do not have a balanced hand - no 1NT opening or rebid, you do not raise C, s what do you have? Either a 4 card M with a hand not good enough to reverse, or 6D. Regardless, partner will overvalue the DK.

[Cyberyeti]

 Nabooba, on 2017-May-26, 18:56, said:

The worst option is to open 1D and rebid 2D. Those who choose this option have not thought through the ramifications. You do not have a balanced hand - no 1NT opening or rebid, you do not raise C, s what do you have? Either a 4 card M with a hand not good enough to reverse, or 6D. Regardless, partner will overvalue the DK.

You have to bid this way in Acol on AKQ, KJxx, xxxxx, x and K♦ is probably less valuable opposite that. It works well, the principle is to be happier to admit to a 5th card in a minor that you don't have, than to do so in a major. You get stiffed very occasionally when partner has a 3316/3325 minimum 2/1, but nothing is likely to work well here, you never miss a 4-4 major suit fit provided you have the agreement that you can't pass 2♦ with 4M, so you respond 1M if you were going to.

Bidding this way avoids playing in 4-3 major suit fits when you think you're in a 5-3 and also avoids the situation where responder decides the 5-2 fit is the place to play game and it's actually 4-2.

[simonjw]

This comes down to which lie I am prepared to tell, and for me,suggesting a 5th/6th diamond that I do not hold is better than suggesting a 5th heart/spade. I do not want partner to force to 3M/4M

[mr1303]

Last time I played Acol vaguely seriously, we agreed to open all hands like this 1NT. Hearing the arguments for 1D (rebidding 2D) or 1H rebidding 2D, I am convinced that 1NT is best.

[helene_t]

Yesterday we defended 2♦X-1 = -200 after the auction
1♦-x-1♠-x
2♣-p-2♦-x
Opener was 1444 and they could make 3♥.

[GrahamJson]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-26, 03:19, said:

Acol is not monolithic, and has changed over time. I play a modification to the normal structure that was in vogue in the 80s but less popular now where with say a 4-4 in the reds 3-2 you open 1♦ not 1♥ and rebid a wide range 1N, finding the hearts later except in very rare cases. The book "Precision bidding in Acol" is where this came from, Crowhurst had no doubt it was still Acol.

Opening a spade suffers the same problem as 1♥, partner will assume you had 5 even more so than in the actual auction, because 1♠-2♣-2red categorically shows 5♠, as you don't open 1♠ with any 4441.

My copy of Precision Bidding in Acol recommends that with 4441 (any singleton) with one poor suit you treat it as a two suiter. I can find no book on Acol that recommends opening 1D with 4441, singleton club. A wide range 2NT rebid would be 15+ (assuming 12-14 NT) so is not an option.

[GrahamJson]

As for 1S-2C-2red categorically showing five spades, Crowhurst gives the following example of a 1S opener:-
AKJx KQ102 3 10875

[Cyberyeti]

 GrahamJson, on 2017-May-27, 17:41, said:

As for 1S-2C-2red categorically showing five spades, Crowhurst gives the following example of a 1S opener:-
AKJx KQ102 3 10875

Not sure what he'd open with the minors reversed, that one is more likely to be opened 1M because the club suit is bad and you have the added problem of choosing which major to bid over 1♣-1♦, what would he open with one of the majors and clubs reversed ? Also 1♥ is not a sensible option.

Neither of these are problems with the actual hand.

Quote

My copy of Precision Bidding in Acol recommends that with 4441 (any singleton) with one poor suit you treat it as a two suiter. I can find no book on Acol that recommends opening 1D with 4441, singleton club. A wide range 2NT rebid would be 15+ (assuming 12-14 NT) so is not an option.

No you're missing my point, which in that case was that with a 3442 15 count, normal Acol would recommend opening 1♥, we open 1♦ and rebid NT over a black suit, but it's still Acol in Crowhurst's mind and in mine, Acol is not one system.

And on the original hand, you would bid it as 4?4? if you ignored the poor heart suit and open 1♦ (or 1N).

[wank]

considering you're referring to a 43 year old book as if it's the cutting edge of bidding theory makes me think i should write my own.

[nige1]

 wank, on 2017-May-27, 22:27, said:

considering you're referring to a 43 year old book as if it's the cutting edge of bidding theory makes me think i should write my own.

In most areas of bidding theory, Crowhurst conventions were decades ahead of their time. e.g.

• Over opponent's (1N): 2♣ = Ms, 2M = M + m. 2♦ = 1-suiter.
• Cue-bids over opponent's (UNT): Cheaper = other "unbid". More expensive = support for partner.
• After 2N-3♣: 3♥ = 4 ♥s, 3♠ = 5 ♠s, 3N = 5 ♥s. 3♦ = denies 5M or 4♥s -- and then 3♥ = 4 ♠s

But we still look forward to reading Wank's book

[Tramticket]

 nige1, on 2017-May-27, 22:59, said:

But we still look forward to reading Wank's book

I would love to see a good quality up-to-date book on Acol - it is desperately needed.

But it would be a difficult task to produce one to please everyone. There is no single Acol system. In particular, choosing to open a minor suit when 4-4 in A major/minor leads to a very different system to choosing to open a major. Both are viable systems - but they are different systems.

[Nabooba]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-27, 00:40, said:

You have to bid this way in Acol on AKQ, KJxx, xxxxx, x and K♦ is probably less valuable opposite that. It works well, the principle is to be happier to admit to a 5th card in a minor that you don't have, than to do so in a major. You get stiffed very occasionally when partner has a 3316/3325 minimum 2/1, but nothing is likely to work well here, you never miss a 4-4 major suit fit provided you have the agreement that you can't pass 2♦ with 4M, so you respond 1M if you were going to.

Bidding this way avoids playing in 4-3 major suit fits when you think you're in a 5-3 and also avoids the situation where responder decides the 5-2 fit is the place to play game and it's actually 4-2.

No you don't because a real Acol player opens this 1H.

[wanoff]

 helene_t, on 2017-May-27, 17:19, said:

Yesterday we defended 2♦X-1 = -200 after the auction
1♦-x-1♠-x
2♣-p-2♦-x
Opener was 1444 and they could make 3♥.

Not a great example.
You wouldn't want to make a free bid of 2♣ with only 4-4 minors and certainly not with hearts as well.

[Cyberyeti]

 Nabooba, on 2017-May-28, 04:03, said:

No you don't because a real Acol player opens this 1H.

err no real acol player opens this 1♥ ever. Yes if it was QJx, AKQJ, xxxxx, x you might choose to missort your hand, but not for that heart suit.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2017-May-27, 22:27, said:

considering you're referring to a 43 year old book as if it's the cutting edge of bidding theory makes me think i should write my own.

I wasn't saying it was cutting edge, I was learning my bridge when it was still relatively current and still happen to use several of his ideas, and merely using it to make the point that there is not only one way to play Acol.

A modern Acol book designed for use by experienced players would be interesting, but is unlikely to be written because so many of the UK's top players (particularly the younger ones) now use other methods.

[steve2005]

 wank, on 2017-May-27, 22:27, said:

considering you're referring to a 43 year old book as if it's the cutting edge of bidding theory makes me think i should write my own.

Chrowhurst's book was very detailed. Books didn't discuss sequences like his book except for some strong club books.
I haven't been to England but what I understand Acol is now usually 5-card majors. To me it isn't Acol anymore.

[Nabooba]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-28, 05:10, said:

err no real acol player opens this 1♥ ever. Yes if it was QJx, AKQJ, xxxxx, x you might choose to missort your hand, but not for that heart suit.

Are you sure about that? I suggest you look up some of the old World Championship books.

[nige1]

Different Acol authors advocated different opening styles. e.g. Some of my contemporaries regarded Norman Squire's books on Acol Bidding theory to be gospel. I switched to Eric Crowhurst's theories when Norman Squire recommended opening 1♠ with hands like ♠ 5 4 3 2 ♥ A K Q J T ♦ K 3 2 ♦ 2.

The Sharples brothers were Acolytes. Arguably they were best bidders in the world but I don't think they wrote books

[Cyberyeti]

 Nabooba, on 2017-May-28, 23:03, said:

Are you sure about that? I suggest you look up some of the old World Championship books.

Sorry yes, the word NOW was missing.

At that time you'd probably find with Ax, KJxx, xxxxxx, x they'd respond 2♥ to 2♣ too.