[MrAce]

 manudude03, on 2017-June-20, 13:22, said:

Oh you are going to laugh when you see the full hand

Oh I know that or you would not ask this here. I am behind what I wrote regardless of how funny pd bids.

FWIW, here is the poll I set for this hand in BW where a lot of experts and world class players vote.

http://bridgewinners...m-2-okt5btfoxu/

[GrahamJson]

This is tricky, but my choice is 1H. It looks like a hand where there is no rush, but the most likely game is 4H. Give RHO a minimum and you still need partner to have almost all of the outstanding cards for game to be on, unless he has a perfect fit (QH, KC plus trump length). And as Bobby Wolff (no relation) said; "Don't play me for perfect cards partner, I never have them."

[miamijd]

If you pass, you are very likely to end up defending 1D. This risks (A)finding partner with 7+ out of the likely 10 or so HCP left between partner and LHO and missing game and (B) finding the opponents with a diamond fit, your side with a heart or club fit, and going minus when you should have gone plus.

As for what to bid, I chose the slight underbid of 2C (my diamond cards and spade void don't seem so attractive), but X and 1H are also possible. I don't like 2NT, because it forces you to the 3-level on a hand that might be a gigantic misfit all around.

Cheers,
mike

[gamingrams]

I am curious at what point everyone lost the main point of the original poll. You are playing in a BOT Tourney!

All of the lovely discussions about what your "human" partner will do are clever but superfluous. Bots bid on their own systems and do not have calculators.

[GrahamJson]

I've never played with bots so I don't know their foibles. I guess that they take each bid as "text book" which I imagine means that a TOX is definitely out and maybe also 1H. Perhaps Pass becomes the best choice as it reduces the risk of a not partner getting carried away.

[1Wishbone1]

1 Heart.

Eddie Kantar stuff. Strong 4 Card Major. What could go wrong? If Monster Magnet goes Nutso, bid Clubs back. Have another Daiquiri.

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-20, 12:35, said:

Rowland tried to tell you that you probably made an overstatement by saying "definitely the bid" when you are the only one to vote for 2 NT.

• You being son of a former professional player has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father owning a biggest bridge club in NA once upon a time has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father being BOD in FL has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father having played vs Meckwell has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father being friend with Meckwell has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father's campaign slogan and "high quality refrigerator magnet" which somehow shows how good you guys are, has no relevance to the point he made.
• Your father and his agreement with you has no relevance to the point he made.
• How good you are with numbers and that you do not need a calculator, has no relevance to the point he made.

Now, all of these things that you felt the necessity of listing can be related to only and only one thing and I do not need to be shrink to say what it relates to.




Now back to bridge....If you and your father has a weird idea that says "overcalling 2♣ directs partner into doing some guns blazing with a bad suit for the rest of the auction" then you and your father should seriously reconsider about wasting your time and money for nationals and Bridge Olympiads! No! 2♣ overcall does not promise spades, it never did, it never will! And bidding 2 NT NEVER meant "Partner, you are banned from bidding spades!" It never did , it never will! What is funniest among all the things that you spilled and I am still laughing, is your ability to see your partner's hand! Your partner and your LHO has EXACTLY the same odds of having spades, and LHO bids before your pd. Yet you wrote "He/She has spades" and for some reason known to you and GOD only, it will be our pd who will "come in guns blazing with spade suit"!!

And even if we all agree for the sake of argument that it will be our pd who will bid spades first and will not let us play 3 NT and bid spades again at 4 level, despite the fact that I did not even promise one single spade in my hand, so what? The way you talk someone who did not see your hand would think your hand can not tolerate anything BUT ♥ or ♣ as trump! Are you ****ing kidding me? You have AKJx ♥ and AQxxx♣ ffs! If your pd is not leaving you in 3 NT pd has at least KQT9xxx xx xx xx. and your most likely game, if any, is in spades!

About your comment on you being expert...You are delusional!

[/color]
No! What you should be actively looking to do is to get your head out of your @ $$, ASAP!

Oh! And welcome to the forums, Rob!

With my 2NT bid, if THEN my partner comes in and bids spades I will know he has control of that suit knowing I could have a spade void.

And thanks! lol

[MrAce]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-20, 16:22, said:

With my 2NT bid, if THEN my partner comes in and bids spades I will know he has control of that suit knowing I could have a spade void.

And thanks! lol

In which part of my reply have you seen anything that shows I criticized 2 NT bid? It was all other things you said.
I respect your choice of 2 NT. But if pd wants to bid spades over 2 NT he will have to do it at 3 level which you will not be able to pass. It is quite different to let him be able to do it at 2 level and then 3 level which he may eventually pass 3 NT with a suitable hand after being heard and rejected 2 times. And if he still bids spades after hearing us not interested in spades, he should have a self sufficient suit, or AT LEAST a spade suit that will play much better than clubs or hearts or 3 NT. (As Manu said we know this won't be the case with this particular pd but that is irrelevant)

Rowland (Eagles123) did not criticize your 2 NT either. He just wrote you might be overstating the righteousness of 2 NT bid since you are the only one to vote for it. You replied with long list of irrelevant things to the topic in hand.

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-20, 19:37, said:

In which part of my reply have you seen anything that shows I criticized 2 NT bid? It was all other things you said.
I respect your choice of 2 NT. But if pd wants to bid spades over 2 NT he will have to do it at 3 level which you will not be able to pass. It is quite different to let him be able to do it at 2 level and then 3 level which he may eventually pass 3 NT with a suitable hand after being heard and rejected 2 times. And if he still bids spades after hearing us not interested in spades, he should have a self sufficient suit, or AT LEAST a spade suit that will play much better than clubs or hearts or 3 NT. (As Manu said we know this won't be the case with this particular pd but that is irrelevant)

Rowland (Eagles123) did not criticize your 2 NT either. He just wrote you might be overstating the righteousness of 2 NT bid since you are the only one to vote for it. You replied with long list of irrelevant things to the topic in hand.

So, what did I win?

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-20, 19:37, said:

In which part of my reply have you seen anything that shows I criticized 2 NT bid? It was all other things you said.
I respect your choice of 2 NT. But if pd wants to bid spades over 2 NT he will have to do it at 3 level which you will not be able to pass. It is quite different to let him be able to do it at 2 level and then 3 level which he may eventually pass 3 NT with a suitable hand after being heard and rejected 2 times. And if he still bids spades after hearing us not interested in spades, he should have a self sufficient suit, or AT LEAST a spade suit that will play much better than clubs or hearts or 3 NT. (As Manu said we know this won't be the case with this particular pd but that is irrelevant)

Rowland (Eagles123) did not criticize your 2 NT either. He just wrote you might be overstating the righteousness of 2 NT bid since you are the only one to vote for it. You replied with long list of irrelevant things to the topic in hand.

Also, that hand had an almost guaranteed vulnerable game with very little needed from partner, and/or a sufficient save opportunity for the opponents. And ALL of that is known after only the opening bid.

[MrAce]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-20, 19:45, said:

So, what did I win?

Troll of the week award! Congrats!

[Vampyr]

 GrahamJson, on 2017-June-20, 14:55, said:

I've never played with bots so I don't know their foibles. I guess that they take each bid as "text book" which I imagine means that a TOX is definitely out and maybe also 1H. Perhaps Pass becomes the best choice as it reduces the risk of a not partner getting carried away.

Yes, trying to find the call that will avoid the bot burying you is not that interesting. The choice in real life is what is worth discussing.

[miamijd]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-20, 19:54, said:

Also, that hand had an almost guaranteed vulnerable game with very little needed from partner, and/or a sufficient save opportunity for the opponents. And ALL of that is known after only the opening bid.

An almost guaranteed vul game with very little needed from partner? Well, there are at most 10 HCP or so left for LHO and partner, so let's give partner 5. And let's give him the distribution one might expect given the bidding so far: 5323. So let's say:

Kxxxx xxx Qx xxx

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in game here. And this is a typical, average hand for partner, not one of the many below-average hands he could have. Plus, this assumes RHO is minimum for his opening. If he is stronger (certainly possible), then partner will rate to have even less than this.

Cheers.
Mike

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-20, 20:02, said:

Troll of the week award! Congrats!

Maybe we can set up a game with me and my father one day soon against you and your partner on BBO? How does that sound to you?

[cartruck]

 miamijd, on 2017-June-20, 20:30, said:

An almost guaranteed vul game with very little needed from partner? Well, there are at most 10 HCP or so left for LHO and partner, so let's give partner 5. And let's give him the distribution one might expect given the bidding so far: 5323. So let's say:

Kxxxx xxx Qx xxx

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in game here. And this is a typical, average hand for partner, not one of the many below-average hands he could have. Plus, this assumes RHO is minimum for his opening. If he is stronger (certainly possible), then partner will rate to have even less than this.

Cheers.
Mike

I never speculated any distribution other than my partner has spades and if I don't show right off the bat that I don't have any spades and I bid anything showing a strong hand OTHER than Unusual 2NT our entire bidding system is screwed if the opponents interfere.

My hand is so good, I have to bid, and describe my hand as quickly as possible to help ME know how strong my partner's spades are. Start early, finish strong.

[MrAce]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-20, 20:31, said:

Maybe we can set up a game with me and my father one day soon against you and your partner on BBO? How does that sound to you?

Sure, can you guys afford to pay my hourly charge for online set games? Otherwise what made you think I would be interested in playing vs at best an intermediate minus player online?

FYI, here is the poll for the topic in hand and what most expert and world class players voted for. (click on "see all public answers" when you get there) With you logic, you may end up challenging the entire world to play on BBO vs you and your father with high quality refrigerator magnets!

http://bridgewinners...m-2-okt5btfoxu/

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-20, 22:13, said:

Sure, can you guys afford to pay my hourly charge for online set games? Otherwise what made you think I would be interested in playing vs at best an intermediate minus player online?

FYI, here is the poll for the topic in hand and what most expert and world class players voted for. (click on "see all public answers" when you get there) With you logic, you may end up challenging the entire world to play on BBO vs you and your father with high quality refrigerator magnets!

http://bridgewinners...m-2-okt5btfoxu/

A simple overcall like you and most here suggested does not best describe your hand, nor does it put you in a good position to maximize the game+ contract you need to be in. Defending is not an option on that hand at that vulnerability. A strong Unusual 2NT best puts your team in a position to succeed, and best describes your 20 point hand. Everything should be finessed through your RHO normally. In this case it doesn't even matter. But, you know the finesses are there. Just from the opening bid.

We need another hand to discuss. This one is played out.

[MrAce]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-22, 08:39, said:

A simple overcall like you and most here suggested does not best describe your hand, nor does it put you in a good position to maximize the game+ contract you need to be in. Defending is not an option on that hand at that vulnerability. A strong Unusual 2NT best puts your team in a position to succeed, and best describes your 20 point hand. Everything should be finessed through your RHO normally. In this case it doesn't even matter. But, you know the finesses are there. Just from the opening bid.

We need another hand to discuss. This one is played out.

Why are you repeating yourself? We already heard what you think of overcall on this hand and what you think about 2 NT call. Did you think somehow people will agree with this pathetic 2 NT suggestion if you repeat it enough times? Get over it!

[cartruck]

 MrAce, on 2017-June-22, 11:10, said:

Why are you repeating yourself? We already heard what you think of overcall on this hand and what you think about 2 NT call. Did you think somehow people will agree with this pathetic 2 NT suggestion if you repeat it enough times? Get over it!

Because I can, and I'm right.

[Vampyr]

 cartruck, on 2017-June-22, 11:52, said:

Because I can, and I'm right.

Thank god for the ignore button.