[hirowla]

Hi, I was wondering what would be the best way to bid this. Also, what is the best way to probe for slam after a minor suit transfer.

Weak NT opening. 2S is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is a superaccept (shows at least 3 with a top honour)

---

Is it best to show controls, show shortages or show something else (like a 2nd suit if one exists)?

Thanks,

Ian

[Cyberyeti]

If I'm not allowed to bid hearts naturally at this point, I started by transferring to hearts and bidding it as a 5-5

[The_Badger]

Personally it all depends on your system. If a new suit after a superaccept is GF, then I really cannot see how you can miss out on a small slam.

[hirowla]

The_Badger, on 2017-July-12, 16:26, said:

Personally it all depends on your system. If a new suit after a superaccept is GF, then I really cannot see how you can miss out on a small slam.

I'm just trying to work out the best way to get there, that's what I'm most interested in, including the direct follow ups after 2NT.

In essence, I'm trying to define the system! In the real auction, the next bid was a keycard enquiry which I'm not convinced is the next best bid (in general). Just trying to find what others recommend.

[hirowla]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-12, 10:49, said:

If I'm not allowed to bid hearts naturally at this point, I started by transferring to hearts and bidding it as a 5-5

So are you suggesting something like:

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣ - 3NT - 4♣

(3♣ shows a suit, 3 NT denies ♥ support and 4♣ shows 5+ clubs and slam interest. I guess the next bid is 4♦ (diamond control) and then into Keycard ask.

[Cyberyeti]

hirowla, on 2017-July-12, 17:37, said:

So are you suggesting something like:

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣ - 3NT - 4♣

(3♣ shows a suit, 3 NT denies ♥ support and 4♣ shows 5+ clubs and slam interest. I guess the next bid is 4♦ (diamond control) and then into Keycard ask.

Yes, that's a decent sequence if transferring to clubs then bidding hearts is not natural.

Depends on your methods, 4♦ can be an ace ask itself, it is for us.

I actually have to bid it this way as I don't have a club transfer available, but do have sequences for 4♥/5+♣ and 6+♣.

[hirowla]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-12, 18:04, said:

Yes, that's a decent sequence if transferring to clubs then bidding hearts is not natural.

Depends on your methods, 4♦ can be an ace ask itself, it is for us.

I actually have to bid it this way as I don't have a club transfer available, but do have sequences for 4♥/5+♣ and 6+♣.

I'm trying to work out whether a heart bid after the club transfer should be natural, showing a control, showing a shortage or something else. I'm concerned that if it is natural, what happens if you don't have a 2nd suit (which is very possible as you are unlikely to bid like this unless you have 6+ clubs)?

[Stephen Tu]

Shortage is way more common than any other treatment, and makes sense given relative frequencies of various hand types and how most bidding systems over 1nt are structured.

4-6 can stayman and bid minor if 4-4 fit not found. 5-6 is just too rare to cater systemically to, so treat as 5-5 initially.

[ggwhiz]

hirowla, on 2017-July-12, 10:18, said:

Weak NT opening. 2S is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is a superaccept (shows at least 3 with a top honour)[/hv]

Is it best to show controls, show shortages or show something else (like a 2nd suit if one exists)?

Thanks,

Ian

It makes no sense to show a 2nd suit after clubs are agreed and I prefer cue bids.

If your style is 1st round controls, 3♥ followed by 3♠ at least clues south into what an answer to 4nt is about but I would continue to cue with the south hand looking for the ♥K (eventually) and you have room to find the ♦A too.

If you bid 1st or 2nd round controls a 3♦ bid will immediately find the ♥K or not in this case with plenty of room to go fishing for the ♦A as well.

All that is specific to the actual hand but it seems like the most flexible and efficient use of a LOT of bidding space where showing shortness is ambiguous as to whether you have a rock crusher or mild slam interest or even aiming for a mere 3nt with concerns about the short suit.

That last scenario is a real problem but a responder cue followed by another cue and then 3nt by responder handles a lot of them.

[MrAce]

hirowla, on 2017-July-12, 17:37, said:

(3♣ shows a suit, 3 NT denies ♥ support and 4♣ shows 5+ clubs and slam interest. I guess the next bid is 4♦ (diamond control) and then into Keycard ask.

3 NT not only denies ♥ support but also denies immediate ♣ fit.
With ♥ support opener bids 3 or 4 ♥ depending on your style of fast/slow arrival.
With 4-5 clubs opener bids 3♦ or 3♠. This can also be bid for 3 NT purposes but when it is followed by 4 ♣ it makes it clear for responder.

[rmnka447]

After the ♣ transfer and super accept, isn't still 3 NT in play on many hands?

So wouldn't it be logical that 3 ♥ over the 2 NT super accept would presumably show a ♥ stopper. Then after 3 NT by the NT bidder, a 4 ♣ continuation makes the slam try in ♣ and the previous 3 ♥ bid becomes an advance control bid for ♣. Alternatively, you might also just bid 4 ♥ over 3 NT in this sequence which also becomes a slam try but should show a 6+♣/5 ♥ hand since with 5-5, you'd normally transfer to ♥ and then bid ♣.

So, to recap,

1 NT - 2 ♠
2 NT - 3 ♥
3 NT - 4 ♣

Slam try in ♣ with ♥ control,

or,

1 NT - 2 ♠
2 NT - 3 ♥
3 NT - 4 ♥

Slam try with 6/5 hand (and sort of implies some ♥ control since slam is suggested),

but,

1 NT - 2 ♠
2 NT - 3 ♥
3 NT - Pass

was just trying for 3 NT with something like ♠ xx ♥ AJx ♦ xx ♣ AKxxxx.

[wank]

Shortages after minor transfer (whether fit shown or not).

With the actual hand transfer to hearts then bid and repeat clubs.

[GrahamJson]

There seem to me to be two possibilities after 2NT;
3H-3S-4D-4S-6C Responder's failure to bid 4H highlights the key gap.
4S-5C-5D-5S-6C The 4S bid must show a void. Again, the gap in hearts is apparent.

As a side issue, I believe it is now more common to play 3C as the positive bid in club transfer auctions, with 3D as positive after a 2NT response. This has some advantages, the main one being that with weak 55 minor suit hands you can respond 2NT. If partner shows a fit by bidding 3D, you pass. If he denies a fit with 3C you also pass, hoping that if he doesn't have diamonds he should have a fit for clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would assume, that 3H, followed by 4H showes 65, ..., but 4H sounds like choice of games,
hence is not enough.
3H, followed by 5H bypasses 5C, so is out as well.

You could bid 4C, which showes SI, but hides the heart suit, so I would go with 3H, planning
to bid 4C over 3NT.
If partner bids 3NT you know, that he has wastage in spades, show some mild SI, stop in 5C.
If he bids 4C, he has no wastage, drive toward slam.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

hirowla, on 2017-July-12, 18:10, said:

I'm trying to work out whether a heart bid after the club transfer should be natural, showing a control, showing a shortage or something else. I'm concerned that if it is natural, what happens if you don't have a 2nd suit (which is very possible as you are unlikely to bid like this unless you have 6+ clubs)?

I will deal with this one. Basically you should have 2 routes available. One school of thought is that you bid your one-suiters through a transfer and your 4M5m hands should then go a different route (such as Stayman). Using this method, it is normal for the next call by Responder to show shortage if they have one. The other school is for the minor-based 2-suited hands (4M-5m and 5m-5om, sometimes also 5m-4om depending on system details) to go through the minor suit transfer and for the one-suiters to have the alternative route. I personally do it this second way with a simple 3m response covering the one-suited hands.

There is not really a "best" way here. Each method has certain advantages and certain disadvantages. As always with NT structures, the important thing is that they fit together to make an efficient whole and cover the hand types that the partnership feel are most important.

In terms of the heart transfer route, second round transfers can be of use here. It is possible to incorporate 5♥4+♣ hands into the sequence 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠, which can sometimes save some space. Here, for example, Opener might continue 3♣ showing a maximum with <4 clubs and <3 hearts and 3♦ from Responder now shows a 5th club. When Opener now admits to their club fragment, it should be a simple matter to continue on.

Some others use the sequence 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT to show 5+♥ and 4+♣, which would lead to a similar auction. Another former poster here, TWO4BRIDGE, created an entire conventional sub-system to deal with these 5+-5+ hands after NT openings, complete with 6KCB advances.

There really are a large number of realistic options available here and picking out any one of them as "best" without knowing your precise requirements would be foolhardy.

[spotlight7]

[quote name='hirowla' timestamp='1499876293' post='927639']
Hi, I was wondering what would be the best way to bid this. Also, what is the best way to probe for slam after a minor suit transfer.

Weak NT opening. 2S is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is a superaccept (shows at least 3 with a top honour)

---

Is it best to show controls, show shortages or show something else (like a 2nd suit if one exists)?

Thanks,

Ian
[/quote


I use transfer bids to show a second suit after a minor suit transfer.

1N-2S*-3C-3D* shows Hs. A later raise of Hs shows 5-6 shape.


With shortage, I use stayman and next my bids at the 3 level show shortness.


If slam is my goal(and there is not second suit I use stayman, show shortness next and 'transfer' to the minor by bidding 4Om(of the other minor)


You might want to reconsider super accepts with a weak NT.

You fairly often have a sign off and you prefer to have opener play it with the stronger hand concealed.

[CodeByJim]

N opens Short !c. S responds 2!h. N denies a major /w 2nt. South declares the contract suit w/ 3!c. N shows !s control with 3!s. South initiates B/W to reach the 6!c contract. N makes easily. Have fun! Be happy!

[Zelandakh]

CodeByJim, on 2017-July-14, 01:03, said:

N opens Short !c. S responds 2!h. N denies a major /w 2nt. South declares the contract suit w/ 3!c. N shows !s control with 3!s. South initiates B/W to reach the 6!c contract. N makes easily. Have fun! Be happy!

Super! Now bid with this North hand: ♠K82 ♥KJ ♦AT653 ♣QT9. It is not enough to know that North has a spade control for South to initiate RKCB - you also have to know that it is the ace.

That is quite aside from this being a thread about NT structures. It might therefore be more useful to provide your auction for the OP hands with ♣K and ♣9 exchanged.

[msjennifer]

After 1NT-2S-2NT
2NT-3H Club Heart double suiter slam going,please cue.
3S-4 D
4S -6C
4S denies first or second control in Heart and shows Spade AK at the same time.Now no chances of a grand unless you are gambling on a heart finesse. 6Club final bid.

[fourdad]

I count this as easy slam points and since my KD is protected from the opening lead and that partner has a club honor, I would bid 6♣ on this so fast that your head would spin.