[straube]

I'm trying to come up with a new NT structure. I have an old one that is overly complicated and I've been mining the IMprecision NT structure (also complicated).

One thing I liked about my old structure was that 1N-2N was Puppet Stayman. I liked that it established a GF and shut the next opponent out of the bidding. I used it a lot! But I also liked Adam and Sieong's follow-ups after a Stayman start. They use 1N-2C, 2X-3C to ask further description. It solves a lot of problems including finding a minor suit fit before 3N has passed.

Adam or Sieong, what's your experience with 2C and 3C re-ask? I would like it for slam hands but worry about overcalls (and doubles) and worry about information leakage, too. Would you like to have both Stayman and Puppet Stayman available? It's obviously redundant but maybe worth having.

[jfnrl]

"stayman à ressort" in France
very old-fashioned
see "Le bridge d'aujourd'hui" by Delmouly et Parienté (1972)

[awm]

I’m not personally a huge believer in looking for 5-3 major fits with both hands balanced. The 2C...3C sequence seems fine in the slam zone but I don’t recommend using it to look for 5-3 major fit (information leakage, even if you think these fits are important).

What’s fairly easy is to change our structure so 2S is clubs or balanced invite, 2nt is diamonds (any strength, or weak both minors) and 3C is puppet. This is closer to what a lot of people play (but retains the 3-level splinters and other non standard follow ups).

[straube]

That looks good. I was thinking of something like...

2C-
.....2D
.....2M-
..........2S-GI
..........3C-re-ask
..........3D-fit for the major, size-ask
..........3M-OM, 5+C (for awkward hands of 2 or fewer in the M such as 4216 or 4225 or 4135
2D-
.....2H-
..........2S-GI+ (more room here available than just for GI)
...............2N-no fit, minimum
....................3m-sign off
....................3H-6H
....................3S-self-splinter
....................3N-to play
....................4m-self-splinter
..........2N-clubs
...............3C-relays
....................3D-5/5
....................3H-1534 or similar
....................3S-3514 or similar
....................3N-2524, should be slam invitational
....................4C-1624 or similar
....................4D-1642 or similar
..........3C-spades
...............3D-relays, no fit
....................3H-GI 5/5
....................3S-GF 4/5,asks3N
.........................3N-
..............................4C-4513
..............................4D-4531
....................3N-4522, slam invitational
...............3M-fit
....................4m-short
..........etc-diamonds, similar to clubs
.....2H-transfer
..........2S-
...............2N-clubs
...............3C-hearts
....................3D-no fit
.........................3H-5/5, GF
...............etc-diamonds, like clubs except I have double-assignment for 3N and higher rebids
.....2S-size ask
..........2N-min
...............3C-to play
...............3D-club splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ diamonds (e.g. 4450 to 3370)
...............3H-club slam try with short?
....................3S-relays for short
...............3S-5m/5m
.....2N-minor suit stayman, etc
..........3C-club preference
...............3D-to play
...............3H-diamond slam try with short?
...............3S-1-3-(54)
.....3C-Puppet Stayman
.....3D-diamond splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ clubs
.....3H-heart splinter promising 3 or 4 spades and 4+ of each minor
.....3S-spade splinter promising 4 hearts and 4+ of each minor

[awm]

We’ve found that it’s better to bid the fragment than the shortness. The main reason is the spade shortness, where it’s valuable to be able to determine whether opener has wasted values opposite the short suit and then play 4H if there’s no slam. If 3S shows the spade shortness, opener must bid 4S to show no wasted values (committing to 5H if partner has no slam interest) or else responder must bid past 4H to ask whether opener has wasted values (reaching 5H when he does).

Bidding the fragment also makes the major suit treatments more symmetric, which is nice for simplicity.

[straube]

I haven't added your suggestion yet but I take your point. I'm more trying to map out space at this point. Like it?

A few tweaks. If one wants to self-splinter for hearts, one has to start 1N-2D, 2H-2S. If one wants to self-splinter for spades, one has to start 1N-2S.

Disappointed that I can't show shortness in the 5m/5m but the (30)55s would likely splinter and the 11(65)s wouldn't know which splinter would be more useful, so it's not a total loss.
I put the 5m5m in with the 2N response so that diamonds are always guaranteed. The 2S bid handles many different hands.

2C-
.....2D
.....2H-
..........2S-GI
..........3C-re-ask
...............3D-a side minor
....................3H-asks
.........................3S-4 clubs
.........................3N-4 diamonds
...............3H-5H
...............3S-4522
...............3N-3433
..........3D-fit for the major, size-ask
..........3H-OM, 5+C (for awkward hands of 2 or fewer in the M such as 4216 or 4225 or 4135)
..........3S-OM, 5+D (similar)
2D-
.....2H-
..........2S-GI+ (more room here available than just for GI)
...............2N-no fit, minimum
....................3m-sign off
....................3H-6H
....................3S-self-splinter
....................3N-to play
....................4m-self-splinter
..........2N-clubs
...............3C-relays
....................3D-5/5
....................3H-1534 or similar
....................3S-3514 or similar
....................3N-2524, should be slam invitational
....................4C-1624 or similar
....................4D-1642 or similar
..........3C-spades
...............3D-relays, no fit
....................3H-GI 5/5
....................3S-GF 4/5, asks3N
.........................3N-
..............................4C-4513
..............................4D-4531
....................3N-to play
...............3M-fit
....................4m-short
..........etc-diamonds, similar to clubs
.....2H-transfer
..........2S-
...............2N-clubs
...............3C-hearts
....................3D-no fit
.........................3H-5/5, GF
...............etc-diamonds
.....2S-size ask
..........2N-min
...............3C-to play
...............3D-club splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ diamonds (e.g. 4450 to 3370)
...............3H-club slam try with short
....................3S-relays for short
...............3S-1-3-(54)
...............3N-to play
...............4m-self splinter in support of spades
...............4H-self splinter in support of spades
.....2N-minor suit stayman, etc
..........3C-club preference
...............3D-to play
...............3H-diamond slam try with short?
...............3S-5D/5C
...............3N-balanced diamond slam try?
.....3C-Puppet Stayman
.....3D-diamond splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ clubs
.....3H-heart splinter promising 3 or 4 spades and 4+ of each minor
.....3S-spade splinter promising 4 hearts and 4+ of each minor

[foobar]

straube, on 2018-May-21, 19:59, said:

.....2S-size ask
..........2N-min
...............3C-to play
...............3D-club splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ diamonds (e.g. 4450 to 3370)
...............3H-club slam try with short
....................3S-relays for short
...............3S-1-3-(54)
...............3N-to play
...............4m-self splinter in support of spades
...............4H-self splinter in support of spades
.....2N-minor suit stayman, etc
..........3C-club preference
...............3D-to play
...............3H-diamond slam try with short?
...............3S-5D/5C
...............3N-balanced diamond slam try?
.....3C-Puppet Stayman
.....3D-diamond splinter promising 3 or 4 of each major and 4+ clubs
.....3H-heart splinter promising 3 or 4 spades and 4+ of each minor
.....3S-spade splinter promising 4 hearts and 4+ of each minor

FWIW, here's a scheme to handle minor single and two suiters:

1N - 2♠ (Range ask or ♣ signoff or slam try with both minors)

After 1N - 2♠, 2N/3♣ shows min / max, then:
P/3♣/3N=signoff, but 3N over 2N show 22(45) slam interest.
3♦=5-5m, at least mild slam interest; then 3♥ = general counter try
3♥ 3♠: (45) minors with slam interest and shortness in major


1N – 2N (Minors or ♦ signoff or single suited slam try)
Opener bids 3m as preference, then:
P/3♦: Signoff
3♥: Slam try with 6+♣
3♠: Mild slam try with 6+♦
3N: Serious slam try with 6+♦

Also, over Jacoby transfers:

3m: Slam interest with 5+m, then 3M sets M, else new suit=counter try in minor, else 4m agrees minor
3OM: Slam try with any shortness, relay=asking for H/M/L
4C: Slam try with 6+ and no shortness
4D: Slam try with 5M332; then 4M and 4N are sign-offs, else 4M+1=RKC responses
5C+: RKC responses with 5M332, opener places final contract

Opener can super accept Jacoby transfers with the following:

• 2N: Best super accept with 3-card support
• 3♣: Max super accept with 4; re-transfers and then cue if needed
• 3M: Med super accept (cue with slam interest)

[straube]

How are 5M/4m slam tries handled?

[foobar]

straube, on 2018-May-21, 21:05, said:

How are 5M/4m slam tries handled?

Those hands have to use the 2♣ - 3♣ relay sequence.

[straube]

Adam, do you splinter 1435? Or do your splinters promise 4 of the minor(s)?

[awm]

straube, on 2018-May-21, 23:43, said:

Adam, do you splinter 1435? Or do your splinters promise 4 of the minor(s)?

Yes we splinter with this shape. Typically the shortness is the most important feature for deciding whether to play 3nt. Minor suit lengths are less important and only really matters once we reject 3nt (and 4H).

[straube]

So this structure seems to step evenly with your structure for the 5M/4m hands. If you splinter with 4153 and if you (I assume) use Stayman and the 3C ask for 4M5m22 then that explains why you describe your transfers as either 5M or 4M6m.

So basically this is putting those 4M/6m with Stayman and I would then have 1N-2C, 2M-3H=4OM/6C and 3S=4OM/6D.

I like this structure but I dislike very much that 1N-2D, 2H-3N as written is 2524. I would have to swap out 3N and higher which ruins the symmetry.

Think I'm getting good value for 1N-2S being possibly spades and shortness while 1N-2D, 2H-2S can be slam invite hearts and shortness. I also like having Puppet Stayman.

Yours is ahead on most of the minor suit stuff. Like your 5m/5m is 3D which is way better than 3S. I'm also not clear on what you're doing for some of hte minor hands. For example, I think at the point of
3H that can mean short spade, 3H and 5+ clubs.....but does that say anything about diamonds? I think 1-3-?-5+ is a very attractive bid regardless of diamond knowledge because opener is almost always going to have a way to react to that.

[awm]

Transfer to a minor and then 3M shows shortness in the other major. It’s not specific about the other minor.

One part of our current structure is the sequence 1nt-2c-2d-2h. This is a puppet to 2S and shows a variety of hands with both majors. These include:

5S/4+H weak (passes 2S)
5H/4S invitational (2NT)
Various (54)-(31) (rebid 3m in the fragment and opener can bid 3M)
6-4M (3M next)

You seem to be cramming the GF hands into transfers unnecessarily.

[Kungsgeten]

I'm sorry to say that I haven't studied all the replies in this thread. I thought that I could share my own NT structure, which I think is pretty nice. A lot of it is similar to stuff suggested by Glen Ashton (although I discovered most of it after having designed the structure). Our structure include both Puppet Stayman and "shape ask" via regular Stayman, which seems like something you were interested in?

Basic responses:

1NT--
2C = Stayman. If invitational then 4S or both majors. Can be weak with 4M and a longer minor. Not choice of games (COG) with a four card major (uses Puppet Stayman). Can be slammish balanced.
2D = Asks if opener has four+ hearts. Can be a normal transfer to hearts, or invitational with four hearts, or (semi)balanced invite without a four card major (a 1NT-2NT type hand).
2H = Transfer with 5+ spades.
2S = Transfer to clubs.
2NT = Transfer to diamonds, or weak with 5-5 minors.
3C = Puppet Stayman.
3D = 5-5 minors GF.
3M = Splinter with (31)(54) or maybe (30)55.
3NT = To play.
4C = Transfer to hearts.
4D = Transfer to spades.
4M = To play.

Now a key point to the structure is that responder will not have an invitational hand with 4 hearts when bidding Stayman (unless also having four spades), and also not a balanced invite without a major. Opener responds in normal Stayman fashion: 2D or 2M.

1NT--2C; 2D--
2H = Both majors unbalanced. Less than game force, but may be an invite. Not forcing. I don't really like this part, so perhaps something else could be used.
2S = Range ask or clubs. Could be invite with 4S, or weak/GF with 4M and 5+C.
2NT = GF, asks for more information. Opener bids 3m with 5(+) suit, 3H with 4-4 minors, and 3S/3NT with 4333.
3C = Transfer to diamonds. 4M and longer diamonds. GF since we would pass 2D with a weak hand.
3D = "Transfer Smolen". GF with 5+H and 4+S (so could be 5-5 majors).
3H = Smolen. May be 54(40).
3S = Smolen. May be 45(40). Yes with 4-5 majors and choice of games you can choose to bid 3D or 3S
3NT = To play.
4C = Transfer to hearts.
4D = Transfer to spades.
4M = To play.

1NT--2C; 2H--
2S = Range ask or clubs. Usually four spades unless we have a 1NT-4NT type of hand. Now if opener has 4-4 majors he bids 3H (max) or 3S (min).
2NT = GF, asks for more information. Opener bids 4 card side suit, rebids five card heart suit, or bids 3NT with 4333.
3C = Transfer. Weak/GF with 4S and 5+D. Opener breaks the transfer if holding 4-4 majors.
3D = GF with 4 hearts and some shortness.
3H = Invite.
3S = Suggests 3NT, even though we have 4-4 hearts.
3NT = To play. We used to play this as 3 hearts and 5 spades, but don't anymore.
4C = Slam invite with 4 hearts. Usually no shortness.
4D = RKCB for hearts.
4H = To play.

1NT--2C; 2S--
2NT = Puppet to 3C. Sign-off in 3m (4H and 5+m) or GF with 4H and 5+C.
3C = GF, asks for more information. Opener's 3H shows 4 clubs, otherwise same principle as above.
3D = GF with 4H and 5+D.
3H = GF with 4 spades and some shortness.
3S = Invite.
3NT = To play.
4C/4D = As above.
4S = To play.

This is how we play the 2D response:

1NT-2D (asking for hearts);
2H = Not four hearts.
...Pass = Normal weak heart transfer.
...2S = Range ask. Invite with 5H or GF with 5+H and 4+C. Opener bids 2NT/3C with min/max and no hearts support, or 3D/3H with max/min and three hearts.
...2NT = Invite with less than five hearts.
...3C = GF with 5+H and 4+D.
...3D = INV/SI with 6+H.
...3H = GF with 5H. Doesn't want opener to pass 3NT if holding three card support. Could be looking for slam with 5332 or something like 25(42).
...3S = Splinter.
...3NT = COG with 5H. Opener may choose to pass even if holding three hearts.
...4m = Splinter.
2S = Four hearts, would accept an invite where responder has 4H.
2NT = Four hearts, would not accept an invite.


There are several things in this structure which could be changed, while still playing the same 2C structure. The 2S+ responses could be modified. If you choose to play 2S as range ask for instace, the 2D response would be a transfer with 4+H. The most obvious flaws IMO is with invitational hands. 5-4/4-5 majors and invitational uses the nebulous 1NT-2C; 2D-2H sequence, which also could be weak. A nice sequence in many Stayman structures is 1NT-2C; 2X-2S showing an invite with 5S (and thus being able to play there). In our system we have to transfer to spades and then bid 2NT in order to invite.

[straube]

Thank you Kungsgeten. I'll have a look at your structure in a bit.

awm, on 2018-May-22, 04:02, said:

Transfer to a minor and then 3M shows shortness in the other major. It’s not specific about the other minor.

One part of our current structure is the sequence 1nt-2c-2d-2h. This is a puppet to 2S and shows a variety of hands with both majors. These include:

5S/4+H weak (passes 2S)
5H/4S invitational (2NT)
Various (54)-(31) (rebid 3m in the fragment and opener can bid 3M)
6-4M (3M next)

You seem to be cramming the GF hands into transfers unnecessarily.

ok. I was planning to use that 2H puppet as well, but I'd forgotten all the M/M hand types you were able to show by using it. I had planned to use it for some 4M/6m hand types.
Well, this is probably where I've gone wrong and probably why you have to include the 4M/6m patterns within your transfers. I personally find the 4/6 stuff confusing but I'll have to look
more into that. Thanks

[awm]

Here’s an interesting alternative. Note that responder hands with shortness already splinter, so what’s left is balanced patterns. We can do something where

1nt-3c = (34)(24) or 5m-332 or [(23)44 no slam]
... 3d = no 5M and now
... 3M = 34(24) bidding the fragment; if 3nt from opener then 4m shows the complete pattern if slam interested
... 3nt = 5m-332 or (23)44 no slam
... 4m = 5m-332 slam interest

1nt-2c-2M-3c = 24(34) with other major, 2425 other major, or (23)44/2245 always slam interest
... 3d = no 5 card suit and then:
... 3M = 4-5 minor with 4OM (4m over 3nt is 2425)
... 3nt = (23)44 slam interest NF
... 4m = 5m in 2245
... 4M = three card major in strong 2344
1nt-2c-2d-3c = 4+ clubs balanced slam interest
... 3d asks and...
... 3M = (24)34 or (24)25, latter bids 4c over 3nt
... 3nt = (23)44 interest but nf
... 4m = 2245/2254
... 4M = 2344 fragment
1nt-2c-2D-3M = (24)43 or (24)52 since traditional “Smolen” hands can be put through 2H after 2D.

Seems like this lets you basically show responder shape completely, and then opener evaluates.

[straube]

I like what that can do. You still have some need for splinters here (5431 for example) but I don't know if there's a conflict or not. Seems not.

[straube]

Your NT transfer structure finally clicked for me. I like it very much. For the 4+M/5+m responder gets to know how much trump support for the major opener has...which is something that just showing a 5M/5m doesn't.

I'm seeing

2C-as IMprecision
2D-as IMprecision (5H or 4H/6m)
2H-as Imprecision
2S-size ask, possible club bust
.....2N/3C
..........3D-3-suited, short club (1435 possible)
..........3H-slamming clubs
..........3S-1-3-(54)
2N-weak minor suit stayman
.....3C/3D
..........3D-diamond bust
..........3H-slamming diamonds
..........3S-5m/5m, serious interest?
..........3N-5m/5m, COG?
3C-some form of Puppet. Maybe your latest idea
splinters (3S promising 4 hearts)

I understand your interest in bidding the fragment as opposed to shortness, but I like...

1N-3H, 3S to be 4 spades checking on a fit and not a "purity" bid.

This is mostly IMprecision. What do you think of the tweaks?

Btw, there is still room after a 1N-2D, 2H-2S start for higher level rebids as well as for 1N-2S, 2N/3C for the higher level rebids.

[awm]

I think you need 1nt-2nt-3m-3nt as to play (diamond invite sequence).

We put diamond shortage through 1nt-2c-2x-3d; you could do the same with club shortage and recover 1nt-2s-2n/3c-3d as the minors. This also frees 1nt-2nt-3x-3s as 13(5+)x while 1nt-2s-2nt/3c-3s can be 13x(5+).

[straube]

I like that.

How about

1N-2D, 2H-2S, 2N
.....3S-2533, SI
.....4C-3532
.....4D-3523

and

1N-2S, 2N
.....4C-5332
.....4D-5323
.....4H-5233

Would you explain more about your 1N-3C thinking? I get that you're using Stayman for the balanced hands with 42 in the majors and 3C for the 43 in the majors. I'm fuzzy on how to remember division for slam invitational hands.